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UK Gear Testers Give Polartec Neoshell Mucho Loving...
New Neoshell waterproof fabric from Polartec lands prize from UK outdoor writers and photographers body.
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Bryan Mclaughlin
19/09/2011 at 15:39
I am interested in this product but my confidence in Polartec is tainted after reading the blurb here

http://www.polartec.com/uploads/pdfs/Polartec%20NeoShell.pdf

Thelackofspacingbetweenwords... well may be all the spaces were needed for their fabric 8-)

I also noticed the HH drops from 10,000 to 5,000 after 20 washes according to Rab product info. I wonder if that is just DWR loss that can be re-instated? If so they could be clearer if not I would like to understand why it drops by 50%.
Mr Fuller
19/09/2011 at 16:15
It's not DWR loss, no. DWR does not affect hydrostatic head. The 50% may indeed be significant, particularly if people start to sell it as 'softshell' (ie. may be washed more than once a decade, as is the case for the average hardshell). I was recently told by Someone Knowledgable that the membrane might, laughably, be partially soluble in water.
Peter Clinch
19/09/2011 at 17:53

So after enough washes to keep almost anyone going for the lifetime of the garment, it drops from far, far more HH than you actually need to merely far more.  That's not actually too off-putting IMHO...

Pete.

Mr Fuller
19/09/2011 at 18:16
I'm not sure that's true, is it? I thought to pass standards of waterproofness it had to be 3000 mm, but in some seriously heavy wind-driven rain you might reach levels equivalent to about 7000 mm?

I suppose the numbers are not important; but that the membrane degrades over time may be. Despite all this it's probably still the best stuff on the market.
Peter Clinch
20/09/2011 at 09:50

Hilleberg tents start life with a 3000mm hydrostatic head.  They're not known for leaking...

If you're in a real gale-powered deluge you'll get plenty wet anyway because walking jackets don't have formal seals on cuffs, hem and neck.

Pete.

Mr Fuller
20/09/2011 at 10:08
Good point. Should have thought of tents...
Martin Carpenter
20/09/2011 at 10:15

There was that discussion on this on the bpl.com forums - here.

It seems that tents can get away with quite a bit less because they deform slightly when a big rainddrop hits them while clothing (on shoulders at least!) can't. Makes sense I think. 

I don't know if wind driven rain drops have a truly higher energy than non wind driven ones - they've fallen a long way after all! - but it does seem like you mostly really need big HH's for really violent thunderstorms, which I don't think we really get here?

So 5k could be plenty, monsoon's perhaps....

Edited: 20/09/2011 at 10:16
Bryan Mclaughlin
20/09/2011 at 10:56
Peter I have washed my old Montane event jacket that many times. I was running in it most nights through the winter a few years back. I no longer need to wash as frequently have I have a wider choice of jackets in the cupboard 8-)

3 things interest me in this thread.

How much HH is really needed waterproof. IIRC the definition is 1,600? I have read various figures for real world regular requirement ranging from 2,100 to 10,000.

Why the loss of HH when washed?
Is it the manufacturing process of this fabric? IIRC there is a unique manufacturing process for this?
Is it water/moisture per se that causes this?
Is it detergent,
or is it a function of time and washes are a proxy for degradation of performance?

Do the other members of this particular PU membrane family - powershield- also suffer from degradation.
Martin Carpenter
20/09/2011 at 11:16

Powershield different Powershield pro same tech and was claimed as 5k initial down to ~3k regular so yes.

Jon Doran
20/09/2011 at 12:43
Rather than speculate, I've asked Rab and Polartec for some input on HH and degradation - notably what's going on at the fabric level. If the HH continues to degrade at the same rate or if it bottoms out and what it means for the user.

There will be an initial review of the Rab Stretch Neo on the site today, but I can tell you now that we've not had any issues with leakage, even in heavy rain.

What I'll try to do ideally is to get a sample jacket placed with a heavy user, maybe an outdoors professional so we have some serious long-term feedback.

OutdoorsMagic Editor | jon@outdoorsmagic.com 

Bryan Mclaughlin
20/09/2011 at 13:44
Thanks Jon

Can I ask eere you wearing a reasonably loaded pack when testing?

Cheers

Bryan
Peter Clinch
20/09/2011 at 14:44

What I'll try to do ideally is to get a sample jacket placed with a heavy user

So if I eat enough pies you'll send one to me?

Jon Doran
20/09/2011 at 18:19
Can I ask eere you wearing a reasonably loaded pack when testing?

Normal day pack usually, I've not been backpacking much with the jacket or generally this summer in fact.

I've also had a bit of a reply from Polartec along these lines:

Every laminate depreciates over time where the water column is concerned, some faster than others. If we take the leading waterproof technologies they also see a decline in the water column and this continues to decline overtime until eventually the water column becomes insignificant, what Polartec guarantees is that the water column will never drop below a 5000 mm water column for the life of the garment, this is not a guarantee found on any other laminate technology. The 5000 mm water column is still offering an excellent level of weather protection, this decline is gradual and not fast.

'Where care is concerned, we suggest following the wash/care instructions which vary depending on the style but basically the same as for any laminate. Again the big difference between Polartec NeoShell and AN Other technology is that Polartec is a Polyurethane electro spun, microporous membrane as opposed to PTFE which needs regular laundering to 'unblock' the pores and allow the membrane to function, the technology in Polartec NeoShell is different so regularly laundering for this reason is not a requirement.'

So, hopefully that clears up a couple of questions.

OutdoorsMagic Editor | jon@outdoorsmagic.com 

captain paranoia
20/09/2011 at 18:50

Polyurethane can degrade by hydrolysis in the presence of water.  This is the cause of tent coatings becoming sticky if left wet for too long (besides mildew...); see 'how should I store my tent' on this MSR FAQ.

I'm guessing that this cunning electrospun PU forms a matrix of very, very fine PU filaments.  I might be tempted to suggest that these very fine filaments may hydrolyse in the washing process, and thus cause the matrix to open up, thus reducing the HH.

It's just a theory...

Mikel von Dundeeski
20/09/2011 at 19:11
I think gear needs to have a 1000 HH to be advertised as waterproof.

 

Mr Fuller
20/09/2011 at 19:37
Ah cool. Good find CP, and cheers for the reply from Polartec, Jon. Their waterproofness guarantee is impressive. I remember some tests done a while ago and after 10,000 rubs a lot of jackets barely had a hydrostatic head at all, so guaranteeing 5000 sounds pretty good.
Bryan Mclaughlin
20/09/2011 at 20:23
Thanks for getting than info Jon.

Captain -Finetex web site or Nexture video on you tube shows you to be correct about construction. I think

Mike -AFAIK the British standard is around 1,500 and the MOD accept 800!


Zippy
20/09/2011 at 22:09
Martin Carpenter wrote (see)

I don't know if wind driven rain drops have a truly higher energy than non wind driven ones - they've fallen a long way after all! - but it does seem like you mostly really need big HH's for really violent thunderstorms, which I don't think we really get here?

I was thinking about Martin's comment.  I think that given most of a jacket will be in the vertical plain, for vertical rain (ie non-wind blown), most of the energy will be parallel to the jacket so will not have much penetrative force (other than on, say, the head or shoulders).  For wind blown rain, the energy of the wind will be perpendicular to the jacket so will have more force.  In addition, there may be an effect whereby the force of the wind prevents the water droplets from easily rolling off the jacket, so that both wind blown rain and surface water are being forced through.
Bryan Mclaughlin
22/09/2011 at 09:56
Another thought if the captain is right and theatrix pore size increases to create the drop in HH. Does this also increase CFM?

My hallucinantion is a neo shell become power shell pro overtime?

In polartecs reply 'the lifetime of the garment' is not defined. Could it be the lifetime is 20 washes?
Jon Doran
22/09/2011 at 13:12
I'll ask Polartec if they'd like to comment further... but presumably if that happened you'd end up with something not unlike PowerShield Pro...

OutdoorsMagic Editor | jon@outdoorsmagic.com 

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