Quick question on scrambling ropes... obvioulsly, I'm not attempting any serious long pitches, so full strength only is required over short distances. I don't really want the weight of a full rope.

Richard Gear recommends 1/2 rope, doubled if required for short pitches.

There's also the option of a short (c 30m) full rope, like the Beal Via Ferrata.

Anyone have any ideas on this? Which is my best option... Are there any others?

One consideration with a 30-metre single rope is that you could only abseil a maximum of 15 metres, which may or may not be a consideration if you were thinking of going to Skye, that might be important.

I would be wary of using walking, glacier travel or via ferrata ropes in a scrambling context. This type of rope is not designed to take a high fall factor, such as can occur if you slip up on a vertical scramble. It's not the length of the pitches which is relevant in this context, more your height above your last belay. So a specialist climbing or scrambling rope would be much safer.

The length of the rope is a personal choice, and Jon has already pointed out the abseil issue. You can get round this by carrying an similar length of narrow static cord just for abseiling, but this adds weight of course.

Remember too that you need around 10m (-ish) of rope between partners, so a short rope limits the number of people you can have on the same rope. And, as the ends of the rope are the first to wear, you can cut these off a longer rope and still have a useable length, but this is less likely to be possible with a shorter rope. Of course, all this needs to be balanced against the weight advantage of a shorter rope.

Rope tends to run against the rock far more when scrambling than climbing, walking, via ferrata-ing or anything else. And if you don't always use slings and krabs on running belays, this will abrade the rope surface too. So it's a good idea to get one that's designed for heavy duty use if you don't want to be replacing it regularly.

Dry treatment is another thing worth paying for. It doesn't last forever, but it limits the amount of water (= weight)that the rope takes up - and however much you plan only to be out in dry conditions in the UK, it's inevitable there'll be some rain sooner or later.

My own preference would be for a 50-60m half rope. A modern 50m rope generally weighs 3kg-ish, so you're not saving a massive amount of weight by going shorter, and you're still able to ab on it.

Yes as joan says don't use a non dynamic rope.

Hmmmm. Grade 1 scrambles I just have about 10m of 11mm rope in the sac (and don't expect to use it). For harder scrambles I have a 50m 1/2 rope cut in half and would normally only carry one half as I wouldn't expect to abseil more than 40 feet anyway. Anything more then both halves go in. Just a couple of points about using one half rope doubled: Don't use an ordinary figure of 8, pass through the loop again to get a double loop (look in a book to see how it's done) and unless using the classic belay make sure you have a device (don't use a figure of 8) that will accept two ropes of equal diameter and practice first somewhere safe.

devices like Wildcountry VC's are pretty simple, effective and fool proof belay devices....even for fools like me.....

Why do you think you shouldn't use a F8, Mike?

I don't cary a F8 cos a belay device will work fine in most situations, and I carry that anyway, so the F8 just adds to the weight, I've also heard that they tend to twist the rope but I'm not sure if that's an old wives tale or not, the main advantage of an F8 seems to be the heat dissipation (spelling police take note, if I get any spellings correct, it's more through luck than judgement) which becomes an issue only on a fast abseil (SAS style down the side of buildings etc), I always back up with a prussik though, quick and simple to set up.

Joan,
disadvantages:
- does not lock automatically (the rope can be locked off once the fall has been held)
- **belaying with two ropes is difficult and not recommended**
- when used for abseiling, the ropes do not remain separate and get kinked
- difficult to pay out rope quickly when used in the normal position
- although when used in the fast position the rope can be paid out quickly, far less friction is produced making it much harder to hold a fall. In addition, the Figure of Eight can often sit wrongly on the carabiner, making it very difficult to handle. This particular use is potentially dangerous and not recommended.

There have also been documented instances of F8s failing whilst stopping a fall.

Mike, the disadvantages you mention relate to indirect belaying on pitched climbs, not abseiling, which is the only use for a belay device on a scramble.

As Dave says, if you're carrying a belay device, there's little point in carrying a F8 as well unless you'll be doing a lot of abbing.

But if you're only abseiling, a F8 is a good choice precisely because it doesn't offer a lot of friction. This means it won't heat up and runs a whole lot more smoothly than an ATC-type device. The issue of holding a fall doesn't arise because you back up your abseil with a prussik or mechanical device. If you have to do multiple abseils quickly, eg to get down as fast as possible in bad weather, then a F8 is a good choice.

F8's are great if you're doing a lot of steep abseiling due to heat dissipation mentioned earlier, but they do kink ropes badly. I would seriously question using one to belay.
A double sticht plate is small and light, made for belaying and is fine to abseil with as long as you take it easy. Certainly on scrambles, whatever the grade, you're not going to be doing much free abseiling. I've never really used prusik backups, but I do insist on bombproof anchors!

I tend to carry an ATC simply because it's lighter, doesn't twist the ropes - nightmare with F8 in my experience - and anyway, as Bob points out, few scrambles have much in the way of extended free abseiling on them anway. FWIW i use a 60 metre 8.5mm dry-treated half rope, mainly because it's what I have.

Joan - I see your point but:
Fig 8s better for abbing than belaying, and slightly heavier to carry.
Most times when scrambling a device is most likely to be used for belaying rather than abbing.
(How many scrambles have you had to abb off?)
:-)
OK with the exception of Pinnacle Ridge on SNG
So I carry the lighter device (given that the chances of using it are low) that's optimal for belaying; and also run direct belays on a muntner hitch or occasional body belays. Abs are backed with a prussik, and I've never had problems with too much friction on 8.5mm ropes and an ATC - quite the reverse...on an old pair of BD 8.5mms that were stiff and slipery as wire hawser I had a couple of REALLY quick abseils - hence the back up prussik paranoia.

Talking about f8s got me thinking about knots that people use for scrambling. I've tended to use the figure of 8 knot for most things but I've had to review my basic techniques for a refresher to regain my rock II certificate for taking kids out. Presently I'm having trouble remembering the bunnies ears on the figure of 8 on the bight though.
Although I never used it much, the italian hitch seems to be a good one for scrambling as it can be used for reasonably safe belaying, certainly in low fall factor situations.

Erm, Bob this is a touch off thread but I couldn't help admiring your new picture...a bespoke tarp, or off the peg?

Anyway, IMHO the f8 knot is great because even if totally cocked up in the middle of the night miles from home on an epic retreat you still get a knot, unlike the bowlin. Big fan of the muntner though - for rapid protection of a second on a direct belay - just because of the speed involved. (A bit like the kiwi boot-axe belay as well).

All this talk of belay devices - does this mean people here regularly ascend scrambles in pitches rather than moving together?

FWIW I would only ever pitch to bring up a nervous second - in which case I would use an Italian or maybe the dreaded F8 (with a direct belay) so that I could be in front of the belay where I could see everything, and escape the system easily if necessary. You have to be behind all the other devices, which makes them less useful in this situation.

Wow. (I think! ;-)
Re: the Munter / Italian Hitch. My gut instinct was that this would rule out a double rope - although this reference would suggest not...
I'm considering a 50m half rope for all the reasons mentioned above...

BTW Ben B did you know you shouldn't be using an ATC with 8.5mm ropes? - it is specifically designed to be used with 9.5mm and over only, and the lack of friction could have you ending up with an accident. here is a good feature to help you choose a replacement.

Yes Giles, you can use an Italian on double ropes, but you get even more rope twisting than you would on singles. Unfortunately there's no device/method of belaying which allows you to be in front of the device and doesn't do this (as far as I know, but willing to be corrected!)

Good point Joan - the only scramble so far where the rope was needed was Pinnacle on SNG; otherwise I went through a stage of roping up on grade3s when starting climbing on principle, to get more experience of placing pro and then that was usually moving together on a shortish rope.
I did once find a guy trying to do an aid ascent of Bryant's gully one sunny summer day though...and he even had jumars...

Crikey it's all go here this morning...
Actually to be precise I now pinch my wife's Bug and use that: it's fine as the angle is tighter through the slot. I was rather cheekily using ATC as a generic name, like friends.
This may help bringing up seconds independently, though - sorry, will have to cut and paste link as I'm not literate enough to do the html link!
www.cassin.it/uk/scheda.asp?Codice=215