Have you used that device then Ben? Does it lock up like a New Alp at the first sign of trouble?

Bloomin' heck Ben can you open bottles of beer with that as well? Joan I was only really talking about belaying, I've used a F8 for abbing loads of times (like Bob I don't tend to use prusik, but bomb proof anchors). I'm quite lucky in that there is a disused railway near me and I use one of the bridges to practice abseiling and self rescue using various bits of kit, I haven't got up the nerve to try the classic abseil off it mind you! These days I use a Metolius BRD 'Beyond Hope' belay/abbing device, quite appropriate really.

I've never used it, although I've read a couple of good and a mediocre review. Looks like it would lock and be near unreleasable without getting the weight off - ah how I cursed the sodding newalp device...

Mike - re "bloomin'heck can you open bottles of beer with that as well?"
You know that's not the first time someone's said that
;-)
LOLOLOLOLOLO









LOL




giggle



Sorry - puerile innuendos over now.

On a more grown up note, the BRD looks like a good bit of kit though. Any problems?

Mike, the reliability of your anchors doesn't affect the need to use a prussik back up, because they fulfil different purposes. The anchors attach the rope to the rock; the prussik attaches the climber to the rope. Having a prussik back up means that if your abseil device fails, or you let go of it and it slides, or you don't attach it correctly to yourself or the rope, etc, then the prussik will still hold you attached to the rope. It's not much good knowing your rope is firmly held by the top anchor when you're sliding down it at 90mph....

Haven't come across any yet and Michele finds it easier to use than my old sticht plate. It'll take 8-11mm ropes double or single. It's also quite light.

Can I second prussick back-ups please. I always use one, takes seconds to fix up - short prussick loop, French prussick knot round rope under the abseil device and clipped into the leg loop of the harness. Make sure loop is short enough not to tangle with abseil device. If you let go go of the knot, for any reason, it will stop you. My main fear is passing out on abseil for whatever reason, from rockfall to fainting - fear? - and I find it reassuring to know I won't plummet as a result.

Some people put the prussick above the abseil device, but then if you stop the loop is taking the strain rather than locking off the abseil device.

Also excellent for messing around taking out gear on abseil or sorting out the next set of anchors on a multiple ab. I've used a Petzl Shunt a couple of times, but it's heavy and has only one mainstream use, protecting abseils. Comboine one of those with a really serious Figure 8 and you can barely get off the ground...

This I know joan, I'm just a lazy so and so, I'll go to the trouble of making sure the anchors are secure but not bother with prusiks, yep I know they're easy to tie, but I just prefer to wiz down the rope.

Though I do have a tape loop handy just in case... I know that won't help me if a rock hits me on the bonce... but there again I should be wearing a helmet.....

Jon, current recommended practice is to clip the prussik into the harness below the belay plate, rather than into the leg loop. If you pass out, a leg loop attachment will be drawn upwards, resulting in the harness waist loop taking all the weight (unsafe and uncomfortable), and (worst case) the prussik possibly touching the belay plate and releasing.

Interesting. I always clip the leg loop at the rear, behind the strap connecting waist belt and loop to stop the prussik pulling round to the front. I don't quite follow where you're supposed to clip the prussik using the system you describe, ie, which part of the harness? I'm confused, where does the prussik knot tie onto the rope, above or below the ab device. If it's above you then need two hands to abseil, one to control the rope, the other to hold the prussik, then you have no free hand to push away from rock or whatever.

Yours

Confused of Glossop

Surely using the belay loop would be bad, as that would tend to cause the prussik to get too close to the "ATC"? Always assumed the whole point of having the prussik was to add a back-brake to the system lest speed got too great, rather than as a device that could take a shock load fully.

Am also confused. Perhaps I use too big a prussick loop, but 'd have thought that if its clipped into the waist belt then its MORE likely to hit the belay device and either bcome jammed in it or negate the purpose of having it in the first place.

Si(C)

There's a bit on uk.rec.climbing Q18. The answer seems to be: Opinions vary.

There is also a UIAA document on Equipment and its Application which makes interesting and sobering reading, perhaps I should be using a prusik.

Question: Multi person party, with a 9mm half rope is it, better, desirable, not safe, to use half of the rope as a safety rope, with the other half being used to abseil? With only the last person down using the rope doubled.

Both the belay plate and the prussik clip into the ab loop of the harness, with the belay plate above. The belay plate *must* have an extender (eg. few inches of cowstailed sling) attached to keep it away from the prussik.

So the belay plate attachment is (in sequence) - ab loop, screwgate, extender, HMS, belay plate, rope.

And the prussik attachment is - ab loop (below extender), 2nd screwgate, prussik, rope (below belay plate).

You can then hold the prussik with either hand to control the descent. I reiterate that an extender is essential for this method to work safely.

Ahh! It becomes clear.

Cheers

Si(C)

Must say o prefere the sound of prussik above decender acting as a back up incase tired arms lose controlled grip of rope...

I do agree that prusiks on abs may be a good idea to protect against being knocked out by rockfall, but I've never seen anyone actually use one. I've abseiled a lot in the Verdon gorge, often doing 200m abseils, quite often with chunks of it totally free. In order to speed up the process we didn't bother tying knots in the end either, which in retrospect was a very silly thing to do.
I've used prusiks in rescue situations but anything that actually keeps the ropework simple seems a good idea to me.

But that's the point, it's incredibly quick and easy to rig a prussik, takes maybe an extra 30 seconds per rap. Use a French prussik so it releases under pressure and off you go. Makes sense to me and I've used it since doing a course at Plas y Brenin years ago. Fundamentally I hate abseiling and anything that gives me a modicum of extra security gets a big thumbs up from me. Yes, you'll still die if your anchors pull, but what the heck.