Harry, you could also count in the weight of the fleece that the majority of Paramo user won't need to be wearing as well...

But what do you mean by a "similar product" - certainly my Aspira smock is the equivalent of any full-on winter mountaineering waterproof produced. It's 8 years old, good as new, never leaked, and handles all my winter activities over just a base layer - not bad for a 900g jacket imo.

Is the outer fabric of the Velez smock resilient? Want an alternative to my Berghaus Aquafoil jacket, which isn't all that great in heavy rain tbh.

It is a resilient fabric. No probs with any of my Paramo jackets/smocks/trousers.

And of course, as it's not a membrane, if you do damage it then it can be easily repaired without effecting performance.

Harry, of course I wasn't referring to ANY Paramo product but only to Paramo waterproof garments as those were the garments your comments were made about. Paramo's lightest waterproof weighs 720grams. The Alta II jacket, which I've worn regularly in the last few years, weighs 849 grams. Those are comparable weights with full spec Gore-Tex XCR jackets, except, as has been pointed out, you'll need to wear an extra layer under the XCR.

You can't directly compare a Paramo waterproof with a waterproof like the North Face Diad, which weighs under 200 grams. Both are good garments, they just serve different purposes.

As promised, Paramo customer services sent the aftercare kit and it arrived this morning (perfect timing - I'm off work today), so I've washed, proofed and dried all my shiny new Paramo kit and now it looks - err - shiny and new. What's the betting that summer finally arrives now and it'll be months before I can properly test its' performance!

Get in the shower, man ! We're dying to know the outcome

Spud, I've had Paramo stuff for ages and it's very hard wearing. I think the newer jackets are even better than the old ones, particularly the lining, which is lighter, thinner, slicker and doesn't seem to "pill". It also seems to be slightly more water resistant.

IMHO, Chris has hit it on the head, it is horses for courses. Sometimes I wear Paramo, sometimes Event (which is definitely better than GoreTex). I've also got a DIAD which is nowhere near as good as Paramo or Event, but packs small and can go into my lumbar pack, just in case. I wouldn't want to use it day after day in heavy rain.

Harry be carefull what you say, your words may come back to haunt you.there are members who now wear Paramo who;like you,were dead against the stuff.they were vociferous in their opposition to Paramo,but have now seen the light.

OH-by the way just so you know i'm talking from experience i own both the Berghaus Extreme paclite smock and a ME Matrix jacket and the breathability of both jackets is CRAP!!!

I wore the paclite smock in a total downpour in Langdale on Tuesday,within ten minutes i was wet inside and out.

On the Wednesday i drove up to Keswick and purchased a Super-fly eVENT jacket from Rathbones, and boy!! did i noitice the difference.

The two offending garments will now be up for sale,perhaps your good self would like to purchase these CRAP items so you can sweat to you heart's content.

John, your reply is the most presumptuous I've ever read in my life and rather condescending. Are you a schoolteacher by any chance? Because you've just spoken to me like a naughty schoolboy.

For your information I totally agree with you about paclite. I actually had one of the first ever Paclite jackets made ( a Karrimor cycling jacket – no hood or pockets) and the condensation used to run down my arms.

I've been wearing Event for quite a while (Rab Latok and a Montane smock) and agree with you totally that it's much better than goretax.

I've also got a OMM kamleika smock and pants that I've yet to try out in rough weather but already I'm disappointed with the so-called breathability.

Best of all you assume I've never tried Paramo. I have and I didn't like it.

I'm sorry but I think Paramo is rather like the old betamax video I used to have . . . and you know what happened to Betamax. And videos for that matter.

The list that Harry gave on the other page was totally out of context. I think he is a troll, out to give Paramo a bad name.

Fwiw, I have Goretex, Event and Paramo kit and my favourite outer garment is the Velez smock, followed closely by the Montane Superfly Event thing.

It's really horses for courses but Harry really is trolling, popping up to wind people up.

Harry, try a black binliner and cut out holes for your arms and head.

Harry-if your profile details were clearer in i wouldn't have to assume anything.

Harry is quite right in comparing Paramo to Betamax though.

You know, a damn sight better than the more popular alternative and the standard system for professional users.

:)

Bob, I'm not trolling. I think you've all been conned by the Paramo hype and I'm happy to state my views in a straightforward way.

I've seen this troll abuse many times on this forum which doesn't surprise me as it's the most cliquey one I've ever posted on. Someone new posts, the gang doesn't like it so they all accuse new boy/girl of being a troll. You all really should grow up.

The theme is rather monotonous. TGO is great. Trail is rubbish. Paramo is God's gift. Goretex is the devil's own fabric. Alpkit is the most wonderful company on the planet even though they are obvioulsy a bunch of keen but not very efficient amateurs. Everyone should throw their boots away and buy Innov8. Blah, blah, blah, blah.

PS I've been running in Innov*fell shoes ssince they first came out, I have some alpkit poles and I think TGO is shite. Does that make me a troll?

Harry, how can anyone be conned by wearing a waterproof that breathes well and keeps them dry? If that's being conned I'd like to be conned on all sorts of things. You insult people who use Paramo and find it works well for them by saying they've been conned.

Beat me to it Chris. Harry, you're free and welcome to state your views. I don't doubt that you've tried Paramo and not liked it. But quite how 7 or 8 years regular use (in my case, no doubt more in Chris's and some other folk's) in all sorts of conditions amounts to being "conned by the Paramo hype" I really do fail to understand. Is it because I get overheated, wet and miserable every time I wear it but persevere because the advert said it works?

Chris, read the first post on this thread and then read through all of the other Paramo "issues". Then take a dictionary and look up "objective" and "subjective".

And Harry, you should also add "context" to the list and read through your own posts.

Or possibly take his own advice and check up a few dictionary definitions; Definition of Troll.

Which one, Tdave?
"a troll...stupid, large, brutish, hairy, long-nosed, and bug-eyed, and may also have multiple heads or horns. Trolls love to eat people, especially small children.
The Females of the species are generally kinder and more intelligent, but still fairly hideous"

"An old, unattractive gay man who hits on young men, and cannot seem to understand that they want nothing to do with him"

Cute dictionary.....
;o)

I know this is not very Troll like but I really can't be arsed to continue this. I won't post again so that will make you all very happy

To sum up

1. I don't like Paramo

2. I think the hype surrounding Alpkit is all a bit too much.

3. I don't think Goretex is as bad as it's painted.

4. I think Innov8 shoes should be used for running.

5. I think TGO is a rubbish magazine.

6. I think that Podcast bloke is brilliant.

7. I'm not convinced about walking poles.

8. My tent is made by Ajungilak (novel eh?)

9. garlic bread is the future

10. I may not agree with what you say but I'll die defending your right to say it.

See ya!