I can imagine using the Velez next to skin creates jogging discomfort, but cycling I've used just the Velez to extend into the warmer range, but even so, I'd place 14C about an upper threshold.
All year round?
In the cool+dry I've used Paramo Fuera, in cool+wet I've used Velez, but warm?
My Velez copes well with rain and sweat, however its as thick as a base layer and fleece, so I often boil over unless its cold and windy. As I prefer to sweat as little as possible, it doesn’t get much use.
I usually just wear a light T-shirt. When its too cold or windy, I’ll add a Rab VR jacket, or replace the T-shirt with the Rab. The Rab copes with showers, but not with prolonged rain, for which I use an eVent jacket, either over the T-shirt if I’m working hard, or over the Rab if I’m descending or its cold and windy.
A light primaloft smock comes along for when I halt (in camp, waiting for a bus, or sheltering from thunder). It occasionally gets worn while walking in serious cold (chose Primaloft as it copes well with any sweating while moving).
For Winter, I add a down smock (down to give the most warmth for weight when stationary).
Rab also do a VR smock, but I prefer the jacket as its double-ended zip helps me adjust the venting. For the insulating layers, I chose smocks to save weight and add warmth.
Judy, thanks for the explanation. I am often trying to keep on the cool side as carrying water is very heavy, I often need 2L ( = 2Kg) on warm days and 1L on cool days, and running out of water ruins an otherwise pleasant time, so staying cool is as important as staying warm, to that end I like good venting options and try to keep specific roles to specific garments (classic layering) including the fact that wind-resistance robs opportunity of rapid cooling when required. The Velez is the coolest of the Paramo Analogy, with cycling if you open the chest and the sides you get a breeze right through and pull the arms up and if raining any ingress is wicked then pumped. Paramo is much better in this regard than fleece+eVent. A full-length zip jacket you can't do that when cycling as it bellows and flaps and risks injury, so the Velez forms one very good corner of the envelope i.e. cool+wet to which you can add layers for cold+wet. However, the Velez is still too warm for 30% of the year and when you factor there's more "outdoor time" in summer then that's actually about 50% of the outdoor time. I'd not want to carry a Velez "just in case" as rolled its about 3L and 700g i.e. about twice the weight & volume of a fleece and windproof. I often cycle then hike, e.g. the 70 miles from home to Keswick then hike from there. Bikes are good for carrying weight (e.g. 10KG) but not volume (e.g. 20L), hiking tends to hate weight but not as bothered by volume, so you're often aiming for the bigger garments to be worn and cover a wide range of climate.
I see some positive comments of the Rab VR, I touched one yesterday, felt like a warming windcheater, and felt like it would be as warm as a Velez given the fact the Velez has side vents and the Rab VR doesnt? The Rab VR smock/jacket weighs about 415g/430g respectively. Why that and not say a thin windproof (100g) and separate warming fleece (250g), would weigh a little less with a bit more flexibility of combination? (e.g. fit beneath your windcheater for max warmth or over for a little warmth). Please explain why you like the Rab VR?
One thing I do is hold the fabric to my mouth and blow, to determine the wind-resistance, the Rab VR did seem quite wind-resistant, more than certain fleeces with that claim.
I think I concur with most of the others. If I'm using my Paramo jacket I will want to keep it on all or most of the day rather than lug it around in my rucksack.
Once it gets too warm to wear a baselayer and paramo jacket I switch to one of those motane featherlight windsmocks and carry a mountain equipment paclite jacket (matrix I think?) and some lightweight overtrousers. I've found I can keep the trousers and jacket in a stuffsack about the size of a grapefruit. I also have a very lightweight Arcteryx fleece top that tends to live scrunched up at the bottom of my daysack in case I need some extra insulation. Of course the windtop scrunches up into its little apple sized bag. That's really based on the assumption that I'll mostly end up carrying them and I end up with more options than with just the Paramo jacket.
I have to say I was surprised just how effective and comfortable a baselayer and the windtop was.
I might investigate this year combinations of my mountain vent pull-on, inside, outside etc. I usually only use this for a very cold weather baselayer though. (The fact its black probably doesn't help it's use in sunnier weather!) And I also have one of the old Montaine grey smocky things vaguely like the Rab VR tops which I like but find does tend to get warm.
Sadly, I think the only way to really find out what works for you is experimentation - which unless you have handy friends to borrow things from can be expensive!
Agree a baselayer and windproof provides good insulation, another argument for separating insulation role from windproof roll.
I own:
various baselayers, short and long sleeve
Paramo Explorer light, a fleece with pockets I can use when backpacking and carries stuff above the crunch-zone when cycling, and can vent. I know the theory of reversibility but its a mild difference, it's about the same rolled size as a fleece but heavier but with more flexibility.
Paramo Velez for cool+wet
Paramo Cascada for cool/wet
Paramo Fuera windproof for cool+dry
Rab Quantum windproof for warm+dry
Paramo Torres Gillet for cold.
For dry+cool I'd use the Fuera, for dry+warm I'd pack the Rab windproof, for wet+cool, I'd use the Velez. The Explorer adds heat beneath and the Torres adds heat ontop, combined is ok to minus oodles (never been cold enough to know its lower threshhold). I'd normally pack the Explorer as extra layer for dry days and the Torres for extra layer on wet days, both for freezing cold (which hasn't happened so far.....). I'm lacking a wet+warm top+bottom which is at least 4 months off. If you recall 2007 England weather, the spring was warm+dry, the summer warm+wet.
I always go out with some kind of windproof, us humans actually feel cool from wind more than actual temperature, I agree a base+windproof can cover cool very well, but the Fuera's packed size is quite large and so to cover the times "its bound to be warm" I have the Rab quantum which essentially converts a baselayer into a fleece in warming effect. I also never leave without at least 1 Buff.
For outer layers, I think dark/black is a good colour, accelerates drying and can add warmth on dry days. I tackle need for bright reflectivity via a separate jacket.
I see how good the Velez side vents must be on a bike - must try that out, thanks.
... felt like the Rab VR would be as warm as a Velez given the fact the Velez has side vents and the Rab VR doesnt?
The Rab is less warm than a Velez (its around half the weight of a Velez, because the liner is thinner). It has no side vents, but a big double front zip, pockets, and roll-up sleeves too. As my eVent jacket has a front zip, the two line up to cool my core if I want that.
The Rab VR smock/jacket weighs about 415g/430g respectively. Why that and not say a thin windproof (100g) and separate warming fleece (250g), would weigh a little less with a bit more flexibility of combination? (e.g. fit beneath your windcheater for max warmth or over for a little warmth). Please explain why you like the Rab VR?
The Rab liner wicks brilliantly. Fleeces (imho) don't.
One thing I do is hold the fabric to my mouth and blow, to determine the wind-resistance, the Rab VR did seem quite wind-resistant, more than certain fleeces with that claim.
The Rab outer is Pertex, which feels windproof to F7/F8, but breathes really well. I use the Rab a lot in Winter. Snowshoeing is hard work, and the Rab wicks and evaporates my sweat really well - dont think a fleece would do that. Also I can bash up through the snow with everything open, and shut it down when I reach the ridge which is usually windy - without changing clothing. Also it has a (wicking) hood, which a fleece doesn't. Also it has velcro cuffs and a waist drawcord, so you can tweak the ventilation further. Its wonderfully versatile. Can you tell I like it ?
I prefer lighter coloured T-shirts for Summer, and a black wind/waterproof so the sun warms me in cooler weather. I dont carry a 100g windproof, as an eVent waterproof does the job.
Hmm. I'd not thought about it to that depth Nigel but I think your warm/cool/cold dry/damp/wet idea is a good way at looking at it.
For damp/wet and warm, I might be tempted to go with just some quick drying shorts - if cycling definitely the lycra shorts with pad I find are fine. If its a bit cooler then some lycra tights over the top fit the bill. If it was hammering down, I'd probably put on some sort of shell but if it was less than that and I was warm whilst moving I'd probably just "suck it up" and put on a shell when I stopped. For walking legs, I think some of the trekking shorts (maybe the ones with zip-offable legs) are good. For rainproofing legs I have some cheapy lightweight overtrousers but I try and avoid using them TBH. They are usually fine over shorts though and if they wet through I don't care too much and they still provide a bit of warmth.
In the past, I have heard that people have used capes for cycling rain protection and they would probably be a less overheating option than a shell provided you have good mudguards!
In the end its all a bit of a compromise between the amount of stuff carried, your margin of safety and reaching a level of comfort that you are happy to live with. Oh, and there's probably expense in there somewhere too!
For warm+wet cycling, I had excellent experience list last summer with Rainlegs. Capes, well... it depends if you're cycling for joy or aiming to get somewhere, they do slow you down a few mph.
Wicking baselayer extending beyond your waterproofs is a bad idea , it sucks water from the outside and drags it into your core. e.g. just letting wicking shorts get wet will soak up to the belt area and that whole crotch area if it gets damp stays damp for a long time and some people when you go indoors may infer the wrong thing . Choose a colour which looks same wet+dry. For cyling warm+wet Rainlegs over lycra works extremely well, but it does shed water to your feet so must be paired with something like Sealskinz.
Whalley is about 75mins bike ride so my Paramolic fix comes from WWD, whilst they do free P&P, you get a discount if you bring back your Nikwax "empties" to be refilled from their vat.
Rainlegs work when cycling warm+wet as your thigh is tilted upwards and forward velocity produces shielding, but that doesn't cover walking. I don't really have a total solution (yet) for waterproofing my upper thigh area if I'm walking warm+wet. I have thought of Paramo Vienta zip-offs but I'm dubious they'd get much use. I've been musing butchering some old+cheap something to make some waterproof shorts. Even long waterproof tops don't quite cover shorts so what do everyone else do???
If its a daywalk/cycle but I expected to get wet I'd probably leave some dry clothes to change into in the car or back at base or where ever. Otherwise, I'd go with the "jungle technique" or having a wet set of clothes and a dry set of clothes which is what I've done when backpacking.
But then, I'm not that fussed if I'm wet as long as I'm warm...
Car? I've heard about them, they're like two bicycles strapped together with very expensive inards? I've seen people feed meters to keep them close by, I just fold mine and keep next to me. My concern is having 1 set of clothes I wear all the time, carrying little but the clothes to cope with the variability of conditions and food+water+misc. I've proved that X-static fabrics last about 5 days of wear before odour.
Interesting concept, just let yourself get wet and keep a spare dry set, I think that's ok for very warm conditions where wet clothes is unavoidable (if not rain then sweat) which rarely occurs in England as we typically get hot+dry or warm+wet in this context, so in England you can afford to get wet if a passing shower but if showers become a 4-hour front then you're in trouble. I'd have to use a drybag or such like to actually guarantee dryness. Isn't that a little dangerous as if you get cold and then swap into your dry set, and they then also get wet...? I think if you're just out a short distance from a warm dry base (e.g. B&B) then the risk is minimal, but if couple of days away it could be dangerous particularly if you're carrying your food as hunger (well for me anyway) removes my ability to generate heat. I'd feel more comfortable with an actual waterproof solution which breathes well to keep what you're wearing quite dry. What I like about Paramo Analogy is it dries wet clothing. I'm sure in the above concerns are examples of how people have got into trouble in the fells.
As for what I'm seeking to buy (not Paramo! ) having tried some garments on I'm looking at the Rab Drillium for my warm+wet top, but not yet found a solution for lower half, can't just rely on a nikwax'd windproof as the thigh will suck in water, I may butcher some cheapo Regatta something, but would like some advice? Is there, say, a "skirt" which can be buttoned to the base of a jacket??? Heck, then I can ask "does my bum look big in this".
I've just gone back into my local Cotswolds and re-tried the Rab VR, I'm still not sure what the benefit of that garment is, but can see it has a broader climate range than many other garments combining wicking+warmth+windproof. I can see it suffering from the same "too warm" problem as the Paramo Analogy but without the killer property of being rock-solid waterproof.
Paramo Cambia, I like the feel of the fabric, but worryingly, if I wash my baselayers, the last to dry is Cambia implying they hold more water, compared to Berghaus X-static, Exertec and TrekMates. In the ongoing sales , X-static and Cambia is about the same cost.
You say wicking, but is it wicking+cooling, i.e. you're sweating because you're hot (bad! is losing your precious water) so you need that water to be evaporating close to your skin rather than the other side of an insulating layer? Do those who wear Rab VR need to carry more water as a result? I'm thinking wicking to spread the sweat across the fabric to maximise the air volume it contacts so it evaporates quicker, isagood idea, but it needs to be (warm) next to the outside air or (cool) underneath a non-wicking insulator so the water is kept close to the body so the cooled fabric touches the skin. The insulator needs to be porous to allow the moist air to then move distant from the body otherwise the baselayer evaporation raises local humidity which slows evaporation (and one reason I like windproof to be separate option), then above that is the windproofing to put a cap on the flow of air so the insulator then has some hope of insulating. i.e. a classic 3 layer solution. Once you're cooled quickly your body doesn't need to sweat as much. If a Rab VR is just pumping sweat out to make your skin dry, it could just be creating illusion of comfort when you actually need to be cooler. I know it's important for sweat to be not horded for when you reach a cooler climate, but sweat ideally needs to be evapoating close to the skin.
Still trying to get my head around the VR concept....
I wouldnt wear VR clothing in warm weather. As you say, I would want clothing that holds the sweat on me and spreads it out to cool me, if possible with a large surface area so it cools me quickly - a Berghaus X-Static Tee is a good example.
I agree also that in cold weather, sweating is to be avoided if possible. I often wear just a Tee in cold weather for this reason, usually with gloves. If its blowing hard and not too cold, I'll pop an eVent jacket over the Tee for windproofing. But when its very cold I need some insulation as well, and then its hard to avoid sweating (usually on my back & armpits) as I'll be working hard, so I need something that wicks sweat away, windproofs me, and gives a little insulation. Thats what a Rab VR delivers.
In these conditions, my rate of work and the wind often vary a lot, so I need something with lots of vents, that can also be shut right down, so I dont have to stop and add/remove clothing all the time.
This is where the VR detailed design shines: The coldest configuration is pockets open, top & bottom zip undone to bust level, sleeves rolled to elbows. The warmest is all that closed, plus hood up and waist cord cinched tight.
Steve Perry used a VR jacket on his Winter284, and said:
'The main advantage of the Vapour-rise ... over the fleece mid layers I’d worn in the past was the better balance of wind resistance, warmth and wicking'
The Rab VR Jacket, cheapest I've found is £80. If I was starting over, not having Paramo Velez, I could see a baselayer, with the Rab VR Jacket with a Rab eVent being a "system", costing about £200 and weighing about (430g+350g) 780g, but I suspect the waterproofness and breathability of the above would not be as good as Paramo Analogy (costing £90-£100 and weighing also about 730g) and of course the eVent jacket would block the VR's vents unless you unzipped the front but that's (trust me) not going to get cool air flowing like the Velez's side-vents (somewhere for wind to exit). Also the VR being a warm+windproof will have its own "too warm" problems, which your words indicate may be only a month or so less than the Velez's problems. Further, I am concerned the VR's water-resistance if comes under attack will lead to holding water so long to dry. So I'm kinda leaning on the view that Paramo is the best cornerstone, to work out from but reserve right to change my mind, as I've been wrong so many times before....
From where I am now in my "ownership cycle", I am simply looking for a waterproof shell which being light can be carried (unlike Velez), I'll wear it over baselayer most likely and pack a thin fleece as middle-layer (noting I always have windproof packed e.g. Rab quantum 70g). That would mean the most likely "all year" garments would actually be the base-layer & mid-layer, with summer being my t.b.d shell and my winter being Velez. That's seems quite logical but I got months before £££.
For mid-layer, the reversible Paramo Explorer light has venting options (chest, neck, arms) but these only work best if there's a direct line-o-sight outside-world-to-baselayer.
Final comment, is I was drying my Velez having Techwash'd it and then ventured out in the Fuera, it ain't waterproof, took 5 mins in a downpoor to suck in water (not sweat, this was literally a 5-mins dash to supermarket on my bike) where hair was pressed on hood and then drip drip down my face, it might have lasted longer if I had midlayer over head (e.g. just a cap), so I'm guessing the VR will cope ok in rain to a degree due to pile underneath but won't last sustained rain with the added problem to not overheat I'd have had to open the chest and let water in!
Golly, this is all rather difficult, thanks for the advice.
Further, I am concerned the VR's water-resistance if comes under attack will lead to holding water so long to dry.
I wore my VR once after rinsing it and wringing it out. It was cold and damp to put on, but the pile soon felt warm against my skin. For a while, it was cooler than usual, presumably because of evaporation on the outside surface. After a couple of hours on a cool, dry day with little sun and little wind, it was essentially dry.
Also the VR being a warm+windproof will have its own "too warm" problems, which your words indicate may be only a month or so less than the Velez's problems.
I feel the difference between the warmth of a VR and a Velez is more than a month, as the VR has around half the insulation of a Velez, though ymmv.
One niggle I have with the Velez side vents is that the zip tracks grate on my hip bones - I'm a bit skinny, but the zips are heavy duty and in the wrong place for me ...
Sounds like you'll be looking for a Rab eVent shell then ?
For me, warm weather walking = Cambia base tee (options either way) Fuera wind smock or Berghaus wind shirt, and a Montane super fly in the rucksack. All light colours so they dont attract the sun.
The above gives me various options, and if the weather is really pants I'll wear all three!
hip-bones, that's a girlie problem . Ok so I was back in shop today (with my daughter, she wanted a new Buff) and looked at the Rab VR again to check the pocket vents, if I understand correctly the pockets puncture the windproof but still have the fibre underneath so those vents must rely on a wind strong enough to push through the fibre, you can't just unzip and get cooling in still air. This was the Rab VR Trail jacket (it said on the label). So opening the pockets for venting means the pockets are...errr....open so contents at risk (I know there are 3 pockets so can keep one closed with contents). The two Velez pockets are not part of venting and all pockets accessible via either hand.
A wet VR, in your example, needed it to provide slightly excess warming for it to be cooled by your heat and ambient evaporation, if it was pouring down and you were getting cold, it would spiral badly, so from a safety perspective you'd not venture out in possibility of heavy rain without a shell.
Difference in insulation, so I stood (admittedly indoors stood still) for a couple of minutes each with a dry VR vs Velez, the difference in warming seemed slight. The VR did seem to growing warm areas around the shoulders, probably because a tighter fit and I felt like I'd need pitzips to vent that area. That reminded me, the newer Velez were claimed to have less warming effect than old Velez - do we own different models?
So really the main difference is the VR rolls up smaller so it's a better garment to store "just in case" than a Velez but at the expense of less waterproof which you'd cover with a shell which collectively would make for same size + weight. In the absence of owning a VR, the equivalent solution I would get from a Paramo Explorer Light and a windproof plus a head solution. The Explorer's concept is at the stage of the journey it is the outer layer, you reverse it as you ascend/descend or as the day warms/cools, with the neck/pocket vents and sleeves for tuning, the drawback is when its not the outerlayer and its, say, raining, your tuning comes from the layer above it.
Correct, I am looking for a Rab eVent, probably the Drillium so it gets used for cycling+walking. However my interest in Rab is inferred from the fit of their Latok, my other choice was the Montane Quickfire for which the inference from a Superfly I found a poor fit. Before actual cash parts, want to try on the actual garment.
I'm also looking for shell trousers, may go cycling-specific (e.g. Endura Venturi eVent) as they ride better and ok for walking.
I'm going to Keswick tomorrow, so will look in Winwood, George Fisher, Ultimate Outdoors, Rathbones, etc. Smaller stores may be closed (Needle Sports, etc).
One thing I have invested in is Buffalo Mitts. The hands are one area where P+P is a most excellent idea as if they're overheating you don't so much need local cooling but you do need a good wicking and a quick-dry combination. I have some SealSkinz gloves, absolute rubbish they don't breath enough so I'm pumping up the hill, gloves fill with sweat and then get cold and then typically stay cold - avoid.
The irony, is staying warm+dry is notactually the challenge, but maintaining cooling in varying output+climate so it then tackles a major source of damp and dehydration. I see lots of posts of people running hot/cold, I think it's more an issue of cooling. The other issue is size+weight of clothes you aren't wearing.
Bill - your warm weather solution is almost identical to my current thinking.
As I said it gives great options, if its not very warm I'll change the cambia tee for an old Paramo canyon top which has buttons all the way down the front and is reversible like the rest of the Paramo range.
Paramo dont make the canyon shirt any more, shame, but I own 5 of them!
The Paramo Explorer Light smock, I don't think it's intentional, but the wicking layer is quite wind-resistant, more than a fleece density, if worn wicking-side-out it produces quite a lot of warmth in its own right (i.e. outer layer). Paramo's own literature emphasises wicking direction not the fabric density's reduction of airflow. It's more air-resistant than a thin fleece, with advantage of venting to lowest rib (on me) and high pocket for handwarming. A lot of its weight comes from drawstring and elasticated+button sleeves which are really part of its venting options. Its not waterproof , but certainly could be part of a warm-weather system under eVent shell. However it doesn't actually trap much air, its very thin so under a shell it is adding little warming, I know this from using it under a Fuera. Why am I mentioning this? Because the problem with adding a shell for rain protection is it turns the mid-layer into an insulation layer and you get more warmth than you need, so a mid-layer with wind-resistance suits English climate. That infers it would be a good cool-weather layer with eVent over it for specific rain-covering. I bought it for cold-weather but in the context of a shell it may be useful into cool-weather.
I'm posting a new thread on the Rab VR, the positive reviews on the new design (old reviews commented badly on the hood), implies its better than my humble senses are detecting inside a shop. What I do know is outright wet weather is actually a minority episode in England, it must be covered in a system, but a more common problem is basic insulation and windproofing with handling of short showers.
?
. Choose a colour which looks same wet+dry. For cyling warm+wet Rainlegs over lycra works extremely well, but it does shed water to your feet so must be paired with something like Sealskinz. 
) having tried some garments on I'm looking at the Rab Drillium for my warm+wet top, but not yet found a solution for lower half, can't just rely on a nikwax'd windproof as the thigh will suck in water, I may butcher some cheapo Regatta something, but would like some advice?
. Ok so I was back in shop today (with my daughter, she wanted a new Buff) and looked at the Rab VR again to check the pocket vents, if I understand correctly the pockets puncture the windproof but still have the fibre underneath so those vents must rely on a wind strong enough to push through the fibre, you can't just unzip and get cooling in still air. This was the Rab VR Trail jacket (it said on the label). So opening the pockets for venting means the pockets are...errr....open so contents at risk (I know there are 3 pockets so can keep one closed with contents). The two Velez pockets are not part of venting and all pockets accessible via either hand. 
