Captain, I've read a lot of Paramo discussions (seems to be a hot potato) and most seem think they're too hot. I gathered that using a Paramo waterproof over a shelled micropile would be way too hot even for bad weather and that the Paramo alone would be too hot for milder weather, so I dismissed Paramo. You're saying I should reconsider?

I was actually looking at the K2 version on Extreme but maybe it isn't wicking enough. The APS seems to be similar to Buffalo/Montane, too warm. I wasn't considering shelled micropile with full pile as I'm sure that would be much too hot to wear on the move and too bulky for stuffing in the pack.

I have however been considering the Buffalo teclite shirt as a second layer. Too bad about the hood, the Fell jacket seems better in that department but again lacks venting. Montane make a jacket called the Trans-active which might be good, but hardly any info on that one to be found. Hood probably flimsy.

This info does change things a bit, I might have to look at a Velez adventure smock too. But why does the Velez weigh more than a shelled micropile? I was under the impression that a Paramo jacket was equal in warmth to a full p&p jacket.

Does a Paramo pack as small as a VR jacket?

Janne.  Velez packs a bit larger than the VR

Think the reason you believe Paramo to be so hot is reading threads by people who want a waterproof for the height of summer. I also have a Montane Extreme and the Paramo is nowhere near as warm, its not comparing like for like there. Hope that helps

Paramo is definitely nowhere near as warm as full pile & pertex - it's much cooler than the Buffalo mountain shirt I have, for example. I'd say the warmth it provides is more akin to a windproof-plus-baselayer. (I can't comment on a comparison to shelled micropile since I don't have any).

Thanks G-Ject, that actually helps a lot!

The Velez is more expensive though. Would you say it's worth the money when compared to the others discussed?

Janne. I work for a Finnish comany in the UK and so meet alot of your nationals and through them, I learn your weather is quiet different. Sounds as though this winter for you has been a lot wetter which paramo is well suited to. Then your usual dry cold winters 2 micro piles would pobably be fine. I think that paramo would always add to the versatilaty. In my opinion paramo is the best of all options and worth the money , but thats my opinion.

I'd agree that a paramo jacket has similar thermal properties to the VR and will keep you dry to boot!

For a lighter version that uses the nikwax anology fabric have a look at the Cioch Glamaig which can be made to measure for a reasonable price and is lighter, around the 600 gm mark.

I think paramo is worth the money as it can be reproofed whenever needed and should last for years. 

I'm really pleased to be able to consider Paramo as it is supposed to be completely weatherproof. As long as it is cool enough to actually use in warmer weather, just like any other shelled micropile. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not looking for real winterwear, I've already got the Montane jacket and salopettes for that. (and a heap of all kinds of other stuff)

The Cioch smock seems good as well, but is about the same price as the Velez adventure, a bit more expensive with side zips.

I guess a complete upper body set for most conditions could be: thin merino t-shirt, VR smock, insulated vest, Velez, light insulated jacket.

For legwear: merino boxers, my old Haglöfs zip-offs, Cascada tousers for bad weather, woolly long-johns for sleeping.

G-ject, what winter? All we've had is rain, sleet and sudden one-night plunges to minus 10 followed by rain. This is in the south though, just came back from skiing further north in Sweden and weather was fine there. Warmer than usual though.

Janne wrote (see)

G-ject, what winter? All we've had is rain, sleet and sudden one-night plunges to minus 10 followed by rain. 

DandyMountainMan wrote (see)

Janne wrote (see)

G-ject, what winter? All we've had is rain, sleet and sudden one-night plunges to minus 10 followed by rain.

Are you sure you did not travel to scotland by mistake?

I would be with Pete and CP in suggesting a VR plus synthetic overjacket/smock works well in cold conditions, but I think most people here feel that Paramo is better in cold, wet conditions (though I struggle with paramos warmth in almost any conditions due to a defective thermostat, so ignore my thoughts on P** !)

Last year I probably had 300-400 hours walking below freezing using a VR jacket against my skin, or just a light Tee if above -5/-10. When stopped, I threw a Primaloft smock on top, and sometimes an e-vent hard shell if windy or very cold. I also used a light down hooded jacket for sleeping when snow camping.

imho, the big plus of VR is that you (almost) never end up with moisture on your skin, even when climbing hard with snowshoes. The Pertex outer works brilliantly with the pile inner to clear any sweat. The jacket has very adjustable ventilation too.

A VR is showerproof, and in cold light rainy conditions it keeps me warm so long as I keep moving. A Primaloft smock on top dries out the VR quickly after showers - important when camping so you can wear the VR to bed dry.

It might be that Paramo is better in cold wet conditions, though I found VR/synthetic overjacket/eVent hardshell a potent combination for walking day after day.

hope this is of some use, Judy
www.alpinechallenge.info

Paramo might be the most breahable waterproof around, except perhaps ventile, but it's still not as sweat-free as my Buffalo Fell jacket. I never feel damp in that for long, and I sweat a lot. If I do get a bit warm in the Fell jacket, I just unzip the pockets and/or main zip and it's problem solved. The lack of mesh panels or whatever I find an advantage -- a Marmot driclime shirt I bought had those and they let too much air through on cold and windy days.

I have, on the other hand, felt uncomfortably hot and clammy in borrowed Paramo stuff, and not just in the height of summer. I know some people swear by Paramo, but I usually end up swearing at it...

For cold weather use, a VR-type top over a base layer is ideal, or on warmer days such a top is good worn next to the skin. Then stick a belay jacket of some kind on when you stop.

I've never felt the need when moving for a second Fell jacket over the first, even on windy days with air temperatures well below freezing. I've sometimes carried a lightweight fleece on such days 'just in case', but never used it.

Judy and Guy, thanks for the different point of view. It isn't easy choosing clothing from behind the computer based on peoples' personal preferences. (Most of these brands aren't in the shops in Finland, McGORE rules over here)

My first point was to combine two VR's for such a broad range of conditions as possible, from mild to cold and dry to wet weather. Earlier it was pointed out that a Paramo would be equal in warmth to a VR, so it would be even more versatile as I wouldn't need any kind of gtx/eVent. I guess I still have to reconsider since I really don't want to be carrying and extra pointless kilo. The problem is, I can't stand membrane clothes. (I have a Montane eVent jacket and it's a plastic bag as far I'm concerned)

Guy, have you ever needed a raincoat with the Fell jacket, think consecutive days of hiking in the rain with no means of drying at camp? Also, is it cool enough for use as a general hiking/outdoors jacket in milder weather? I like the look of the hood but would prefer a smock with long side vents.

I will get an insulated vest and jacket anyway to experiment with those. (perhaps Paramo gilet and Montane Flux jacket?)

Janne, another data point on Paramo... I reckon they're about the same thermally as a shelled micropile, judging from the one I used to have.  I found that too hot for a lot of the time I wanted a waterproof, but for constant cold and wet it would be an excellent choice.

They are heavier than a shelled micropile, and quite a lot more expensive, but if you'll be out in cold rain a lot I'd say a very good choice of garment.  if it's just damp and cold then something like  a VR is up to a similar standard but lighter and cheaper (I have a  Montane Krypton I use for that sort of thing, Montane replaced it with the Dulaity but that seems to be gone from their web page now, but it's still available from some shops and online stores)

Pete. 

Basically, it's one or the other then, depending on the general weather estimate. Back to the old drawing board..

(dammit I'd just like to get everything and test them together, maybe I should start my own webzine and get sponsored)

Also look at Paramo's Torres Gilet, designed specifically with "overlayering" in mind for a thermal boost to an Analogy garment for short stops, though it should also be useful on its own.

(I did look at one of these as a general purpose gilet, but whatever shape Paramo make their gilets to doesn't currently conform to mine...) 

Paramo actually have these on offer at the moment, buy the jacket, get the gilet for free, see their website for details

Pete.

Janne, I usually carry a Gore paclite shell to stick over the Buffalo Fell jacket when the heavens really open. It's a pretty fragile garment, but has already lasted three years with no signs of damage because I so seldom use it.

The Fell jacket hood is excellent -- so much easier than pulling a hat out of your pack, and warms you up very quickly if you get chilled.

Of course the Fell jacket can be too warm in the summer, but then I just wear a T shirt and carry a pertex windshell -- a very basic Mountain Equipment one I packed up in Keswick for £20, so any damage to it from rock or pack straps is not the end of the world.

All this is just personal preference of course, but I've tried a lot of different clothing systems over the years and this one works best for me.

Incidentally, I was put off Buffalo stuff for years after trying their original pertex and pile system, which I found unbearably hot, even with all vents open.

Pete, I was actually considering one of those Paramo gilets. On the other hand, a Patagonia puff vest is lighter and I'm tempted by the Torres smock as well. In what way don't the Paramos fit you? I'm not very tall or broad chested, about 38-39" and waist 32" or smaller (hopefully soon anyway).

Thanks for clarifying Guy, I was guessing you needed a paclite to go with the Fell jacket. No doubt a very functional piece of clothing. I'm getting too may choices here now..

I e-mailed Neil McAdie at Rab about the twin VR system so let's see what he says.