The strange thing is: I never set out to form a Páramo religion  -- we are not moonies (no diresepct to the Reverend Moon). All I did was to analyse how clothing systems work, closely inspect mammal fur systems, and come up with a clothing system that took into account some of the physics.

The enthusiasm we see is fantastic. Amongst those who have used Páramo, there is a lot more satisfaction than dissatisfaction. I know where the physics of conventional membrane systems breaks down, and that is usuually in really bad cold and wet conditions. So I suppose the memory of a freezing cold potentiallly frightening experience sticks more than the recollection of having put on too many clothes and overheating .... or the recollection of being the only only dry in the group at the end of a heavy day, which is not an uncommon Páramo experience.

Of course overheating can be risky if you then carry all of the sweat with you that you produced, and move to a cold environment, or stop in an exposed place. But Páramo is designed to move liquid water away from you (directionality) and not just moisture vapour (breathability), so with our systems I believe that you have a lower risk of shock cooling after overheating.

 We won't please everyone all of the time though!

I've had a few "only one dry" experiences, but by using an umbrella.  If it's not blowing a hoolie they're incredibly good, but are well out of the box for a lot of people who think I must be taking the piss by having one with me up a hill...  so I can sympathise with folk who come up against walls of conservative thinking.

I agree there's much less risk of shock-cooling with Paramo, and will be using it (probably in Finisterre form) in future for ski touring where either it will be well below zero or if it's much warmer it's entriely likely to be very wet and as cold as wet can be (conditions that killed a couple of Scots last year on a route we took a couple of weeks back).  At present I use a Montane pertex/microfleece top for that, the primary distinguishing points from a Velez are it's not properly waterproof but it cost £40 rather than £160, and it fits me much better.  I'm not bothered by the risks of overheating, I'm bothered by it feeling remarkably unpleasant! 

I don't expect to be pleased by every bit of gear from everyone, so I don't have a big problem if something  doesn't work for me that works that does work for someone else.  It just does grate a bit when I'm told (repeatedly, and including by people employed by Paramo) the reason it doesn't work for me is that I don't understand it or I must be doing something wrong.  While those are possibilities, they're not the inevitabilities they come across as.

Pete. 

Pete,

The funny thing is that I would always say I am one of those who runs hot.  I find myself overheating and getting sweaty much of the time on the hill.  I'm quite heavy for my height (5'10" but 90kg), which I guess gives me a small surface area compared to my volume, which would explain part of it.  My thoughts on Paramo Analogy had always been govened by the rider nearly everyone puts into reviews of it about overheating.  There were, however, so many people raving about how good it was that I decided to give it a try (I know, more money than sense when walking kit is concerned).

I'm really hopeful that I have cured my overheating problems for wet weather spring/autumn walks.  That's all I was really claiming.  Along with the idea that it might really be the solution many claim in these sort of conditions.  I'm certainly not anticpating wearing my Velez in summer conditions, though I hope it will work for me in moderate winter conditions. I'm certainly not going to suggest this is the solution for everyone, and someone like yourself is way too experienced to need my advice anyway.

I guess the reason I started this thread is that I was surprised that Paramo Analogy worked for me given my self knowledge, and really, really surprised just how well it worked.  Maybe it was a narrow range of conditions that allowed it, I guess time will tell.

For summer conditions, I am going to try out an idea I saw an ML wear on a charity walk a while back.  She was wearing just a Mountain Equipment fleece gillet (well, I didn't enquire as to what she had under it, but nothing else showed), leaving her arms free to adjust temperature.  Given I have had a serious dose of pneumonia, I need to keep my chest / lungs at a reasonable temperature, so I wonder if this is the answer for my summer overheating - exposing my armpits to the hill walking world.  

Unlike you seem to have, I haven't found my clothing solutions to all walking conditions.  It was only last year I found the perfect summer long trousers for me (a thinnish fairly clingy/stretchy softshell type of  thing I found on sale in El Corte Ingles (a Spanish department store) of all things.  So far they have been perfect, even in traditional wet British summers.  I warn you, don't let your mind linger on the thought of my thunderous thighs in close fitting trousers; it will ruin your day.

ah! a fellow umbrella wielder. good aren't they.

Paul, the problem with self-assessment of "do I run hot" is there's no concrete definition of the state and you've got a sample base of one, which isn't much good.  We all get hot and sweat when we do a lot of work, and walking up big hills is a lot of work: that's simple biophysics for getting hot and how we've evolved to deal with it for the sweat.  The thing to look at is are you still getting really hot when everyone around you is wearing more and not wanting to take anything off, and is "hot" meaning "sweating a bit" or "have reached the limit where you do truly not wish to continue without taking something off".

I didn't have any issues with your points in the thread relating your happiness with the product, I just wished to serve a warning that there are potential issues with the kit for some people.

As for folk in tracksters... I've seen a great many people say they won't wear them because it's too horrible a site for anyone else, but to be honest I've seen some pretty un-catwalk body styles in them over the years but to be honest none up a hill to date where I thought "you really aren't doing yourself any favours in those!".  They're a lot less skin-tight than people seem to believe.  I guess the real problem is the person isn't psychologically comfortable in them, and that's all part of comfort, of course.

And I haven't foiund a clothing solution for walking at over 25 degrees.  Nothing is still too much

For summer, if it's "nice summer", I'll just be in a light base layer, to keep the sun off as much as anything (I'm pale and burn easily).  For more typical summer and into spring and autumn I can recommend Paramo's reversible shirts as something you might try, and which work for me.  There really is a difference bwteen the "warm side" and the "cool side" and I find they're dense enough to cut out most of what needs cutting out wind-wise in summer.  They work well as a mid-layer too, and I find them very comfy.  The only real downside is when you reverse them there's no way to do it without taking them off, which at the colder end of the spectrum witha little wind and drizzle isn't much fun!  But it is only a few seconds.  First tried them on the same "try before you buy" as the 3rd Element, sent the 3E back, bought the shirt, then bought another, and Roos (the missus) has one too.

Pete. 

nick brown 5 wrote (see)

And the good thing about an umbrella is that if you are in a force 9 gale (provided that's it's a titanium and kevlar sports reinforced umbrella) you can get home a lot more quickly simply by taking off and flying!

Ah, you've obviously found a mystery spot where the wind actually blows the way you want it!  It's all right for some...

Pete.

Pete,

For me, I know I run hot as I am always the one steaming in a pool of sweat when out with any group (even a group less fit than me - which is hard to find).  This has always been the way, from football teams, rugby teams, even chess teams.  I guess we can only judge ourselves against our peers in the sweatiness stakes, but another marker I use is that I am always the one who drinks by far the most on a walk.  From 0.5 to 1 litre per hour depending on workload and temperature.

I lived in Italy for three years.  In summer (40+C), the only solution was to strip down to shorts and bare chest (plastered in factor 97 sun cream (or whatever)) and with my Tilley hat.  Teva Terra-Fis were great then too, but the bottom half of me always ended up whatever colour the local dust was that day.  On a five hour walk in temperatures like that I would get through about five litres of water and have really sore eyes from all the sun cream / sweat / deet mixture running into my eyes.  The key was always to freeze half the water before setting off, so that you still have cold water late in the day.  And never passing a stream, water trough or any other form of reasonable water, without soaking head and hat.

Glad you weren't offended by my posts and feel free to always add warnings etc to mine, as I know I sometimes get carried away with successes and forget the limitations.

Hugh, the colour thing is like the Tracksters thing: it's psychological comfort, which is actually just as significant as physical comfort.  I suspect lots of us like to think we're into f"unction, not fashion", but I suspect a great many of the same group, faced with a 10% discount for a functionally identical pair of trousers or jacket in, say, dayglo pink and green chevron stripes, would not save the 10%. Or at least not if there was any suspicion of ever meeting anyone else while wearing them.

I'm relatively  immune, being tasteless enough to be seen in stripey lycra tights on occasion (I was even on TV in a pair, in the opening credits of the first series of The Munro Show!) but even so there's stuff I look at and just think "eugggh" and pass over.  if you're spending a small fortune on something, is it that odd to get a colour scheme you like?  At the opposite end of the scale, I don't really like black jackets.  Make me harder to see on my bike, are very boring, and being a baldy I look like I should be stopping people just before the summits and asking if they're on the list or telling them they can't come up in muddy boots...

Pete. 

Bright colours have their uses (I can't believe I'm saying that).  If I wanted a jacket for remote multiday trips far from help or big mountains or really fierce conditions, then I would want something that was bright orange or yellow or something.  But for normal UK walking, even winter walking, except in a few remoter parts of Scotland, I prefer black.

Same really goes for tents (but I don't really want to get into that religious war too much).  I have a green Hilleberg Akto and Nallo, but if I bought a true mountain tent, I would get it in red if it were a Hilleberg.  At lower levels I don't want to be seen, but in very remote dangerous areas I do. Just in case.

But this may just be my psychological comfort zone....

Hugh, the "trackster thing" is something we've just seen from Paul, and I hear a lot when I suggest them as excellent hill-wear: "the world isn't ready to see me in a pair of Tracksters!", or similar is a common result.  People just aren't happy in them becuase of how they perceive they look to others.

Physical comfort is how something actually feels to your sense of touch, psychological comfort is how something feels to your head.  Ultimately it doesn't mater which one makes you feel bad (unless the physical discomfort is actually bad enough because of damage being caused), because either way you feel bad, and you're out there to feel good.

You illustrate the point well yourself: " I don't care about the colour, so long as it is muted"... or in other words, you do care about colour, and you want them muted.  You don't like intrusive colours, so if you were wearing them you'd be in something you didn't like, and thus uncomfortable even though your sense of touch can't find any difference brtween green and hot-pink.

Pete. 

I likes me traacksters nowadays - comfy, dont flap about, and dry out very fast. Much like my lightweiht shoes.

Go tracksters. And Paramo!

A slight correction:  I don't wear tracksters et al because I don't think they look good on me (even in plain black).  I'm not particularly worried about what others think (unless they're close friends/family).  But I agree, it is still psychological comfort thing.

If I don't think I look good in something, I don't like being seen in it.  Sadly, that means I don't get out much.  But that's another story.

I suppose Paramo cant sell them for 'marketing reasons' but why not hybrid pump liner breathable jackets:

eg below ribs could  be billowing(ventilated) PU/membrane, upper arms pump liner, lower missing or ord material.

Again, a Velez (from a Sale) seems the best basis.

Not exactly marketing reasons -- Páramo aims to create garments that are renewable and do not wear out -- the Life Time guarantee means what it says ...

We avoid PU coating becuase they have a limited life -- but they are also much less good at water transport than microfibre ...

> I wear Worth's Je Reviens in lowland countryside

Is that an original 1932 bottle, Hugh, or have you taken advantage of its eponymous re-launch in 2004 and bought some more?