had a look at that link fb......no TNLC.......

just as an aside.....how do you rate Ed's Unna as another Hilleberg option????

I would ask ed Dave - he rates it. I like haveing a covered vesibule because I cook in  the tent - ed doesnt. I have a wet dog to cater for - ed doesnt. etc etc etc.

My personal choice therefore between unna and akto (and soulo for that matter) - would be Akto. But that is a choice made for my own reasons based on my personal needs.

morning BTW

morning me old mucker....

I quite like the Unna but know what you mean re the vestibule (esp for your circumstances.... ).

just a thought really.....its a reasonable weight for a freestanding tent if thats important to you

I cannot see a need for 'free standing' where I generally roam Dave. Most people with tunnel and single hoop tents dont find themselves 'homeless' because they couldnt get pegs in. Do they? cant they walk to the next bit of grass?

fb wrote (see)

I cannot see a need for 'free standing' where I generally roam Dave. Most people with tunnel and single hoop tents dont find themselves 'homeless' because they couldnt get pegs in. Do they? cant they walk to the next bit of grass?

fair point although might be a struggle at the top of Scafell Pike.......

I like the Akto just perhaps the Unna does have some positive attributes for certain circumstances generally

I've been surprised more than once by places I've got the Spacepacker (another single hoop) pitched for a night.  The more extreme occasions have been paddling in Norway where the camp site was a small rocky skerry with minimal quantities of soil but it's amazing what you can manage if you have to, and I got pitched.

On those occasions one of the things that let me get away with it was not having to set the inner, because the ground was so uneven it was simply not practical (I got sleep by careful arrangement of myself around the obstacles, using the detached inner as a groundsheet only)... ever see "inner first pitching is hopeless because it limits your pitching options" as a criticism?  Didn't think so, though in those cases it would have been a problem sooner than the tent not being free standing.

Take a look through HBs catalogue and you'll see pix of tunnels pitched in/on what amounts to mountainsaide boulder fields.  Scafell Pike probably not as bad as you think, especially as one can loop guys (which are well provided on HBs) around rocks or around pegs set between stones as "deadman" anchors).  So it is the case that awkward pitches have to be very awkward before they'll stop you, though one does need to bear in mind that an awkwardly pitched tunnel won't work as well in a real blow as a dome that's usually of similar storm riding capabilities.

I still take a geo by preference for paddling these days, because it's easier to get into contrived pitches than a tunnel, and sea paddling greatly amplifies one's chances of being stuck with a bad pitch (you've got to land, conditions may limit when and where you may be able to land, it's going to be  acoastline and lost of the coast is rocks and stones), but if I wasn't paddling I wouldn't personally own one.   But that's not to say that that, or other aspects of a dome (generally quieter in a blow than a tunnel, which might affect sleep, which is why you're in a tent...) aren't going to be factors for others...  Some people just like self supporting designs more (my wife is one, although she's coming round to tunnels after being exposed to the acres of space in the Kaitum).

Onto Dawn's footprint question, I'd concurr they're not needed.  I keep one on the bunker tent the whole time as it's travelling by sea and the weight is a non-issue, so why not use a double groundsheet?  We have one for the Kaitum tunnel (same groundsheet material as Akto and Nallo), but it's for if we're car camping or, more likely, when the tent goes on a group paddling trip without th einner for use as a "party tent" for out of wind/rain gatherings (another thing I dislike about inner-first pitch: you typically can't do that (though there are exceptions, MH Trangos for example)).  For car camping, might as well use a big sheet of plastic from a DIY shed at a fraction of the price.

Pete. 

Dawn wrote (see)

Hi fb what kind of dog do you take camping with you?

generally its mad, bad and dangerous to know....

in the absence of fb, ...... it a springer spaniel

ALoveSupreme I did look at the TN tents, my first choice being the Ultra Quasar, then downsizing to the Voyager and Ultra Voyager. They look really good EXCEPT they pitch inner first and I am used to pitching outer and inner together, so had to dismiss TN as being unsuitable for me.

Thanks Dave for answering my question about the dog. I have a border collie so was interested what size of dog might fit in.

All your comments have been very helpful. I have read all the pages that you kindly linked to in your posts and now need to weigh up the pros and cons and have a good think. I will let you know how I get on.

Dawn 

While inner first pitching isn't a "good tents don't do this" issue, it is on the wrong side of many folks' preferences.  The typical retort to naysaying seems to be it's not a problem getting an inner first up in the wet with the inner getting unpleasantly moist, but that misses what for me is a much more significant personal issue with a TN geodesic, and that's that I can't configure the internal space in any more than 1 way.

With my Saunders and Hilleberg tents I don't have to have the inner up in order to have the tent pitched, and there've been quite a few occasions over the years when it's been jolly handy to have more space out of the rain/midges than one gets by default with the full inner pitched, or space that you want to use that's under cover but not in your nice clean, dry inner with your clean, dry clothes and clean, dry sleeping bags.  And I can think up quite a few more scenarios for wanting inners out of the way with a wet dog on board!  The porches in a Quasar are pretty minimal (and that's being kind about them, they're the #1 reason I have never wanted a Quasar, I think the RSPCA would be knocking if you kept  a good size dog in one overnight...) and getting a wet and moderatley enthusiastic hound fed in one of them while the inner and its contents stays dry is going to be a great deal more difficult than in a Nallo with the front of the inner unhooked.

You just can't do this sort of thing in a Quasar or a Voyager.  The fact they take longer and are fiddlier to put up is just an additional reason to prefer something like the Nallo as an alternative.

More stable and solid, yes, but then a big tree is more stable and solid than a slightly smaller tree, and that doesn't mean that slightly smaller trees are worryingly unstable or fragile.

Obviously plenty of folks have usage patterns that aren't troubled by the inner having to go first and having to stay put, but for those of us that like to configure the internal space more than one way it is an issue, potentially a deal-breaking one.

Pete.

Don't disagree with any of that Peter, but I have owned both a Nallo 2 and an Ultra Quasar simultaneously and I ended selling the Nallo 2 - mostly because the condensation was just too dispiriting. With respect to fiddliness of pitching, I'd rather put my Quasar up any day, and the worse the weather the more pleased I'd be to have it to get into! Still, although it was a lightweight tent when I bought it - how times change - I'm still on the lookout for something lighter.