Soapbox

Mike(no to the fence) wrote (see)

As this discussion is about a foreign legal system, i'm somewhat puzzled.

Kinley wrote (see)

.......................don't mix your meths and white spirits,

Kinley wrote (see)

It's a bit simpler up here Mike - don't mix your meths and white spirits, don't wear green in Airdrie and don't wear blue in Coatbridge.

Mike(no to the fence) wrote (see)

Kinley wrote (see)

It's a bit simpler up here Mike - don't mix your meths and white spirits, don't wear green in Airdrie and don't wear blue in Coatbridge.

And keep all that west coast shit out of Dundee.

Don't need to tell me Mike - I'm East coast born, bred and domiciled - I just work in the wild west

cysgod-du (Grand Slam 2008) wrote (see)

Kinley wrote (see)

.......................don't mix your meths and white spirits,

Is it the taste then Kinley?

I can't help it if you get confused from your own narrow interpretation thinking I just mean one specific piece of employment legislation.

LOL. I can't help it if you're confused about the difference between Health and Safety and and  health and safety. Some of the examples you have used e.g the bus sign are to do with concerns about being sued and have nothing to do with legislation. Wearing a motorcycle helmet has been a legal requirement since the seventies IIRC. So what is all this h&s legislation thats being introduced? In recent times please.

You're also confused about common/civil law when there is a 37yr old act of parliament which defines the civil liabilities in cases like this

Stop being so bloody pedantic. Iam NOT talking about the Health and Safety at Work act, I am taking about legislation that falls under general health and safety consideration, NOT a specific piece of Employment legislation or for that matter an act of parliament.

Remember, civil law is also legislative and binding on people, it is just not statute law brought in by act of parliament. (Bye laws are another example.)

Interestingly (or not, as the cas emay be!), I made a Freedom of Information Act request to the Health & Safety Executive back in April.  I asked them how many people had been killed by cattle in the last 5 years.  I stated that 'cattle' included cows and bulls.  I also asked in which County the incident occurred, whether the deceased was walking on a PROW at the time, whether they had a dog with them, and the breed of cattle involved.

The HSE responded on 21st May to say that they held details of 17 such fatalities (though they didn't hold all the info I requested), which are as follows (I may have to break it up into more than 1 post):

17/03/2004, Cheshire -  The Injured Person ("IP") was letting the Friesian bull out to take to some cows. As he opened the gate the bull, instead of going towards the cows, came around the gate towards IP and battered him causing the injuries. He later died in hospital

27/06/2004, Derbyshire - IP among a herd of cattle to move ones that were not moving. One of the cattle knocked him to the floor and the rest trampled over him

09/09/2004, Richmondshire - IP was the owner of this mixed farm and was still running it. Farm had a suckler beef herd and 3 mature stock bulls. The bulls had been brought into a pen and had started fighting due to the excitement of calves being weaned from their mothers nearby. IP (details provided end here, but I think we can guess)

07/12/2004, Allerdale - The Deceased Person ("DP") was working with the cattle in the farmyard when he was knocked to the ground by a cow.  He hit his head on the concrete floor.  He was taken to Carlisle Hospital where he died on 8 December 2004

11/06/2005, Warwickshire - IP was walking along the footpath with a dog. Witness saw a cow attack her and fell on top of her crushing her. An ambulance was called and IP was taken to hospital where she passed away a few hours later.

07/07/2005, Cheshire - DP was found lying in a field surrounded by cows and a bull at about 6.00 am.  There were no witnesses to what happened.  He had gone out to bring the cows in for milking

21/09/2005, Dyfed - MOP (Member of Public) Died at Farm as a reult of Cattle Trampling. Repoted to HSE by Police

13/04/2006, Herefordshire - Investigation results from fatal accident. A heifer escaped during unloading. DP struck by heifer and crushed against stationary lorry whilst he and two others were trying to herd heifer back to lairage

27/04/2006, Cumbria - The DP was in ill health. Helping out at milking time when he was struck by a cow or bull running with the herd. Several days later his health deteriorated and he was admitted to hospital where he died 7-8 weeks later. Post mortem report gives this accide (details provided end here)

26/09/2006, Bedfordshire - DP was apparently butted by cattle and may have been trampled. He was briefly conscious but died afterwards. See notes for details (no notes provided)

30/09/2006, Lincolnshire - As Notifiers father was walking back from where cattle were grazing he met a man (DP) with a collie dog on a lead. He asked DP did he realise it wasnt a very good idea he was going towards the cattle and to go the other way as they may be startled by the (details provided end here)

15/12/2006, Devon - IP crushed by bull.  IP was crushed in a bull pen by a young bull recently brought to the farm

10/01/2007, Derbyshire - IP was erecting a fence barrier to the crush machine in order to examine the cattle.  One of the cattle bolted and crushed IP creating fatal head & chest injuries

01/03/2007, Herefordshire - I was moving 5 bulls up and into my cattle race & crush prior to eat ragging two bulls. IP was attacked by a Belgian blue bull in my upper yard. IP received head and shoulder injuries and was taken off to hospital. Later on that day unbeknown to me, friends (details provided end here)

16/03/2007, Richmondshire - CID made enquiries and visited the farm and there was a mobile phone found adjacent to one of the cattle pens.  The DP was known to be looking for an ear tag from one of the beasts.  It is believed that the DP may have been crushed in the pen by one of th (details provided end here)

07/12/2007, Lancashire - IP was crushed by a cow and suffered fatal injuries. Deceased was taken to Royal Lancashire Hospital but was dead on arrival

27/04/2008, Norfolk - IP crossing a farmers field and was trampled to death by a herd of cows. Car found nearby which is believed to be that of the deceased

So, whilst the details aren't complete in some cases, it seems that most of the incidents involve farmers or those who work with cattle, and there were 2 involving people with dogs.

Obviously this is only incidents about which the HSE holds info - I don't know if there are other such incidents about which they hold no information.

I hope some of you find the above informative, or otherwise interesting!

P.S. I'm geeky enough to spend a lot of my precious spare time making FOI requests to various public authorities around Great Britain!

For example, did you know that only one member of the British Armed forces has objected to serving in either Iraq or Afghanistan on the grounds of conscience since January 1st 2003?  So that's just 1 conscientious objector to the 'illegal war' - and apparently the grounds for his objection (which was accepted by the MoD) was 'religion'.

But I digress, back to cows and the HSE...

LOL Dave, sorry!

That's a possibility Parky, and something I had considered.  I originally contacted DEFRA for the information, but they said they held nothing, and pointed me in the direction of the HSE.  It may be that, in order to get definitive numbers of all incidents, it would require FOI requests to the Police forces of every county in Britain (I'm assuming all such deaths are reported to the police, but maybe they aren't?).

But if it was out in a field (and again I'm assuming all cattle are kept in 'fields'), would a farmer's field be considered a 'workplace'?  I can't imagine there being any cattle-related fatalities anywhere other than a farm, a cattle market/fair, or a field (unless it's a case of a cow getting onto a road and causing a crash) - in which case, all such places me be considered a 'workplace'.

What do you think?

if it's a farm worker then anywhere on the farm is the workplace i would imagine. cattle being one of the "tools". reports are probably made to satisfy insurance/regulations e.g. if you emply someone you MUST have employers liability, which policy may well include public liability, workers compensation etc.

i would have thought there would be collated national statistics, somewhere, that break down every call out for comparison/trend/planning purposes for the emergency services.