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| Edited: 25/10/08 22:49 |
 Well, I'm obviously in the minority and I have no wish to provoke anybody so I'll add no further comment. Let's all hope that come morning all there as been is the few cases of hypothermia which was reported. Dave
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its one thing to put yourself at risk. i bet those mountain rescue guys are having a hell of a time
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Dave - you are not provoking anybody as far as I am aware; opinions differ. Say what you like.
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 Those MRT guys know exactly what the job involves, otherwise they wouldn't be in the team. How many MRT folk do you hear going "ooh, I hadn't thought it would be so hilly and wet, I think I'll stay at home watching the telly"? It is what they do, part of who they are, and good on them for it. If the teams invoved decide to criticise the OMM organisers publicly for being foolhardy then I will accept their opinions. Until then, I will start a sweepstake for how long it will be before the Daily Mail brigade start asking for the cost of the rescue to be covered by the organisers blah blah blah. Which would almost certainly lead to the cessation of all mountain marathon events and FRA races, and make the world a much duller place... Ben B (in NZ - hence not competing...)
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 its one thing to put yourself at risk. i bet those mountain rescue guys are having a hell of a time I'll bet a few of the competitors are 'mountain rescue guys'. 
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Hi Dave Brown 2 Sorry if that sounded curt - it wasn't meant to be. You asked a very reasonable question, and I gave an opinion - but it's just that, an opinion, and not necessarily correct. Your own view is just as valid, it's just I don't happen to agree with it, that's all It is something I feel important though; society as a whole does seem to be shifting to a reliance on 'rights' and 'rules' rather than 'responsibilities' and 'judgements' - which are of course harder to form, easier to get totally wrong, and much greyer than the black and white we are all more comfortable with. Hence the more passionate response! Cheers Ben B
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 I'm really not sure whether this event should have been called off earlier or not, but it's a legitimate question to be asked. This year I've entered the Lakeland Trails seies of races. In September the Derwentwater event was cancelled on the morning of the event in atrocious conditions but the cancellation was because of storm damage to marquees on the race ground which created a safety hazard and meant the organisers didn't have the infrastructure to manage the event properly. And at the start of this month the Coniston race, on the advice of Coniston MRT, was shortened and switched to a low level course on account of the prevailing weather (on that occasion I exercised my individual judgement and didn't take part because I wouldn't enjoy it). But the point is that, while each individual entrant can and should exercise their individual judgement in light of their skills, fitness and experience, the event is an organised, commercial event and the organisers have a responsibility to consider a host of factors relating to the overall safety of the competitors, their own ability to manage the event effectively, and the impact on the local infrastructure and potentially the emergency services. I'm not sure what input the MRTs and the police had into any decisions ahead of or during today, I'm not saying that OMM didn't consider these things, or judging the decisions they took - I don't have the information to do that - I'm just making the point that the decison regarding a commercially organised mass-participation event such as this is not as straightforward as the matter of individual judgement and responsibilty that each of us takes to go on a hill or not in the prevailing conditions. (BTW and fwiw I found the ITV news coverage this evening far less sensationalist than the BBC's efforts... )
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I see where you are coming from Matt but have to disagree in part (although you don't clarify where you feel the line of responsibilty lies between competitor and organiser).
Like you I am solely responsible for my safety in the hills - in a race as much as anywhere else. By signing up for the race I accept the conditions, especially those that mention my self-reliance and skills (I seem to remember previously signing also to say I understood the signs and symptoms of hypothermia for that matter and what to do to avoid and treat it). Yes, there are those people taking part who may have lied about their skills, experience or fitness, ignored the suggestions of the organisers about their abilities, and bitten off more than they can chew but that is their responsibilty and not that of the organisers. In my view this relationship only changes if I pay for someone else to be responsible and they are *reckless* with their duty of care to me (which is different from being subject to chance events and good old fashioned human error). There are few hill occasions where I pay someone else to provide safety for me, but at a push I suppose the lift tickets at a ski resort is an example of when I pay good money for what I hope to be a safe service getting me up the hill - getting down again is up to me. I don't look upon a guide for instance as absolving all responsibility for my own safety.
You are right that the OMM organisers take in to account their impact on the local infrastructure - the Black Combe / SW Lakes KIMM from Barrow was a good example of the huge boost to the local economy that came with the event, tempered by the difficulties of organising a safe event around a flooded Duddon river system by the overnight camp. They did a good job; people were still idiots and crossed a river they shouldn't have, but overall, a job well done. I know people crossed the out-of-bounds river, because I was one of them; we judged it to have been safe for us at that time - which it was - but I'm not proud of it and know it invalidates our result. But it was our judgement that was the issue, not the responsibility of the organisers.
I suspect there is a case to making the OMM smaller (and more fun) which would aid the organisers in managing the event, but it is not feasible to know where everyone is all the time. Getting the 'course abandoned' message across is extremely hard at the best of times around 1500 people in a building let alone strewn round the fells.
Commercially, cancelling the event this year would not have harmed the OMM - it's always over subscribed in the lower categories and this is unlikely to change as more and more people start running in the hills.
So yes, there is a responsibilty on the organiser to consider the impact of their race on the environment and those taking part, but ultimately I feel it is subsumed by the responsibilty of an individual for their own wellbeing. And good on you for not racing because you didn't want to - it's a difficult decision to make, but a very easy one to look back upon in retrospect.
Cheers
Ben B
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 How many MRT folk do you hear going "ooh, I hadn't thought it would be so hilly and wet"?
giggle
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 The footage of the guys sheltering in the mines having a great time reminded me of a bunch of OMs crammed in to a small camping barm having survived our attempts to camp when the storm hit the Lake district and Carlisle flooded nearly four years ago. We had a great time, and to be fair to us the forcast was for windy but did not predict anywhere near how bad it got. They will be telling that story for years.
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Good and well drawn comment on the event on Radio 5 Live this morning.
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 This is stil a big news story today too, in the aftermath of piecing together exactly where all of the folks taking part are now located, currently. The report on Radio 4 news this morning says they are still right now trying to account for the whereabouts of about a thousand competitors and organiser volunteers too. It sure sounds like a right comedy of errors all in all, with the comedy bit being Shakespearean tragic comedy in nature most sadly. Lots of folks down with hypothermia, a couple quite serious, and still this morning plenty of folks out there thought lost upon the hill too. MRT God bless 'em, apparently reported as being out on the hills in bad weather conditions all last night, trying to search for and rescue the currently estimated 1500 still lost people.
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| Edited: 26/10/08 08:05 |
just been glancing over the forums on the omm website. very interesting reading.
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 its one thing to put yourself at risk. i bet those mountain rescue guys are having a hell of a time "Those mountain rescue guys" are volunteers. i..e, they have made the decision to put themselves at risk, not the people they go to rescue.. Pete.
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 Pasted from the OOM website forum: It's not the hard conditions that is the worry, it is the raging torrents of water, getting cut off etc. When I heard the forecasts on Thursday, I suggested they pull out, but they wouldn't hear of it. Of course they wouldn't. They have incredible self-belief, and pride, and a lot of foolhardiness. The only way they would have not done it is if it was canceled. Right now, sitting alone after midnight wondering if he's safe, I kind of wish it had been. Before I read these posts I was very much of the 'they know what they are doing and are having a great adventure' frame of mind. Now I'm not so sure as there are some seriously worried relatives out there. That said I did med cover this year for the 10 Tors and it was also cancelled half way through but the kids loved it and had the most amazing experiences. The only way we will know if they did the right thing by not cancelling the event sooner will be if they all come back OK.
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 Jules, that was the first thing I thought of when I heard about this event! So long as there is no genuinely tragic outcome involved this will be a hugely memorable weekend for all who took part.
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I was very much of the 'they know what they are doing and are having a great adventure' frame of mind. Now I'm not so sure as there are some seriously worried relatives out there. It's not "they know what they're doing", but that they ought to know what they're doing. It's an adventure sport, and part of adventure sport is that the participants make the choices and decide on the boundaries. The primary point of the organsiation of an event like a MM is to give a competitive even playing field, not to look after the worries of relatives. That probably comes across quite hard, but if you don't want folk doing dangerous things then where do you draw the line? Winter climbing's a bit dodgy, lots of folk die on 8000m peaks, you can't celebrate folk that do it on the one hand and turn around to others to say you're not allowed on the other... Pete.
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From my reading of the OMM forums there are two very poor efforts at trolling and a couple of genuinely worried relatives, one of whom is getting a somewhat distraught. Unfortunately people react to the anxiety in different ways, and getting cross and criticising others is the way some people cope, even if that involves hurting others, however unintentionally.
The other half being discussed sounds like an experienced and resourceful guy who should breeze through it, but will have a shock when he gets back and sees what has blown up while he was away...
The vast majority of posters understand the ethos of the race and support Jen & Co at a pretty hard time for them. Good to see the MRT posters as well.
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 Does anyone know if there are still a handful of hardy fellrunners out there, dashing round the fells, in the mistaken belief that the event is still running? If so, then they are the ones I feel really sorry for, when I imagine their disappointment at being told it's been cancelled. The wonders of modern communication... and its ineffectiveness when you need it!
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