John, I too stated the similar Blizzard product has a hood ok. Sorry you seem to think - quite wrongly as it happens - that I was being at all critical of you upon your reasons for posting about this product here. I do not think actually that I have ever been critical of any of your posts on here whatsoever at all; in fact for any reason, so relax buddy. I still think the points I raised are valid questions and deserve valid answers though. I also stated I would certainly consider buying one or two of the product as is now for inclusion into my own first aid kits for personal useage. I too stated as you rightly say, I would not use them due to their extra cost as giveaway items for walkers in the need of a blanket on the hill yes. I have the cheaper metal foil blankets just for that job. I asked questions too of just how this product has evolved to its current configuration, and the full range of claims for the product and this is in no ways unusual; and is standard fare as you probably actually are aware really for any invention at all.John I do not disagree with you that this product as is now has good uses and a place in outdoors survival kit for the hill; but where we differ I think right now is simply that you believe that role and that place to be somewhat bigger than I myself do for the product in its current configuration. I think it is more limited to specialist niche uses quite possibly, for mountain marathon runners, day walkers etc right now only in this current one version.
Fact is I still have raised a number of questions about the development of the poncho - whether or not it really works as well as a poncho, as the plastic type it is based upon and replaces, as a crossover multi use product with the silvered survival foil blanket of old - and why the product is currently so configured as is? They have not all thus far been answered I feel.
I don't want to wade into the debate, to try and justify the poncho because I am sure all of you have a greater depth of experience than I will ever have. I do appreciate John's words and I wouldn't have it any other way than his being completely honest, otherwise how would I be able to be subjective! All of your input is most welcome and the info is being filed away, hopefully to be used to good effect in the future. However one thing needs to be pointed out. The reflectiveness of the metalized PET, can also be used to possibly save a life because of it's visability from distance and from the air. I have considered the possibily of printing some sort of logo, be it commercial or be it emergency, in a reflective ink, onto the poncho, which would also raise it's visability. The last point is that it is already in the market and the proof of the pudding, is whether it will sell. Only time will tell!
Keep your comments coming, they are most welcome!
Alex
Alex it is very pleasing to see you mention that survival signalling possible use there too. I was by chance thinking of that earlier on today too, and wondering if in later reworked product improved versions you could print survival information onto the outer or the inner, just like as is on the orange poly standard plastic survival bivvy bags. Too I was wondering if you could beef up the ability of the poncho with inner plastic reinforcement to make it more than a one tripper item in one configuration for the future. That was so it would shed more rain, and be a more robust multi-use garment. I am not necessarily suggesting that would do away with the design of the current variant however. Rather was more thinking that a range of these items could be produced to fit different user roles. Like a 'day walker' one like as is, and a 'trail walker' slightly more multi use stronger version, with more plastic to increase waterproofness and longevity of product life outdoors maybe.
Some details here on this site's page answer some applicational use questions; suggesting too as I did, of emergency medical uses for immediate treatment say for hypothermic casualties outdoors.
'Water Resistant. In addition to the heat insulation properties, it will keep the patient completely dry.' Not quite so sure of that claim though under another page there! 'Completely dry' I think is highly misleading as a product claim.I have owned before in the past Gore Tex jackets that did not keep me completely dry! This item is certainly gonna help but really is not going to keep one completely dry at all, not out in the rain.
Sorry to disagree with you but I have some 10 years of experience in this area, having been manufacturing the cheap plastic emergency ponchos for this length of time. They keep you 100% dry, except for the extremities that stick out, ie: arms and legs! The design of the Space Poncho is exactly the same and it has a layer of 12micron PET laminated to a layer of 25micron linear Low density Polyethylene. No reason for it to be any less waterproof than the cheaper one, in fact should be better!
No, I am very sorry but I simply just do not believe either the cheap plastic emergency poncho nor this new version product either would keep one anywhere near 100% dry in rain though!Being dry is not just from rain coming down, but from wind-blown rain too coming at you sideways on, and water droplets in heavy mist, and also condensation from sweating within the garment. Both the statements of 100% dry or completely dry are misleading to the extreme in my opinion! Plain ridiculous claim that one is! Get real please my mate!I have heard some unbelieveable thoroughly miraculous, fantastical claims for outdoors products in the past, but this surpasses them all I think.
I see you want to be confrontational. Do you really think that by wearing expensive rain gear, it will keep you 100% dry from the inside? I don't think so! Everyone is different and what would make you overheat may not make me do the same, at the same rate of time and visa versa. Surely 100% dry is measured from the outside in, not the other way around. There is no maufacturer on earth that could claim this!!!! I would be a fool to even think I could claim any different. Maybe I am missing something here but wherever the poncho covers you, you will be dry, whether from rain or wind blown rain and that is the measure of whether the garment keeps you dry? Afterall there are no coatings on plastic and it is not a woven fabric, it is a continuous extruded lay flat sheet of plastic, which is then heat sealed together to form a poncho. In the case of my poncho, the hood is not even welded on, it is all part of the poncho, so very little chance of the seal breaking down!
You obviously only want to read very selectively here Alex. I have already stated that I have had in the past Gore Tex jackets that did not even keep me completely dry! What is 'confrontational' about that me old son! It is simply a statement of pure fact. I just think it is somewhat silly to go trying to convince intelligent folks that these two products you manufacture are in any way completely or 100% waterproof. They are neither breathable items and may well be water resistant but are definitely not waterproof!
I see you want to be confrontational. Do you really think that by wearing expensive rain gear, it will keep you 100% dry from the inside? I don't think so! Everyone is different and what would make you overheat may not make me do the same, at the same rate of time and visa versa. Surely 100% dry is measured from the outside in, not the other way around. There is no maufacturer on earth that could claim this!!!! I would be a fool to even think I could claim any different. Maybe I am missing something here but wherever the poncho covers you, you will be dry, whether from rain or wind blown rain and that is the measure of whether the garment keeps you dry? Afterall there are no coatings on plastic and it is not a woven fabric, it is a continuous extruded lay flat sheet of plastic, which is then heat sealed together to form a poncho. In the case of my poncho, the hood is not even welded on, it is all part of the poncho, so very little chance of the seal breaking down!
Let's keep this conversation clean!
Alex
It is your own claims here for your two products mentioned of keeping one 100% dry and 'completely' dry that I am disputing! If you would like to read back it is you making these incredible claims here for your two products not I! As for keeping this conversation clean I have done nothing but do that! If you can show any evidence to the contrary then I for one would very much like to be shown it Alex!
You are trying to turn the words around to suit the situation, I am not making ridiculous statements, just pure fact!!! It seems Trevor that nothing I say will make you happy. The only way I can prove it is to offer you sample to try and I wonder if even this will be good enough to convince you?
Re the 'keeping dry' issue. Me and my son each used a bag made of the 'space blanket' foil a few years ago. We stayed on Snowdon overnight at the start of a 3000s walk.
The foil didn't breathe and we both ended up wet just from the build-up of condensation. I was particularly badly affected, as my down jacket which I wore inside the bag ended up getting wet. When I later needed to use it in an emergency situation it was too wet to be of much use. For what it's worth, I wouldn't go near the foily stuff again.
In my case, I'm sure the condensation was increased because of tucking my head inside the bag and breathing into it. However, the bag's ability to let out moisture whether from breath or from an active body (ie sweat) is clearly limited.
I've used an AlpKit Hunka bivvy bag a few times and that lets me spend a night in my bag with no sign of condensation at all (though the trade-off is that there can be a bit of a draft!).
Whether you get wet from outside or inside, you're still wet. As our bodies generate moisture in various forms, something that doesn't breathe will surely leave us at least damp.
Good to know! As you so rightly say, getting wet doesn't matter whether from inside or out, its not comfortable and you are right, the metalized PET doesn't breathe.
I'm sort of with Trevor on this...in that, I think you will find it very hard to justify the completely dry claims to the satisfaction of our advertising regulators here in the UK (I refer you to a current thread re superfeet)....so, if I were you, I would modify your statements to allow for a little...flexibility...and to avoid an issue before it becomes an issue.
If it was just me, I'd use common sense...it has holes for head and arms...it is non-breathable...so I'll get damp from ingress and condensation...but then I am old and grumpy..
As for the signalling suggestion. Perhaps elsewhere....but I have a reservation here in the UK. I used to carry a space blanket - not for its use as a shelter, but as large silver square to reflect radar and be seen.....(actually, I still carry it as havent thrown it yet)
In the rain, an RAF chopper pilot told me, they dont work as either. They go more white (as seen from the air) and look like a boulder or disappear into the clag...he couldnt explain why they dont reflect radar but said they dont. AS we get a lot of rain here. (UK)..and almost certainly is involved with emergencies this information was a disappointment to me.
>John, I too stated the similar Blizzard product has a hood ok. Sorry you seem to think - quite wrongly as it happens - that I was being at all critical of you upon your reasons for posting about this product here. I do not think actually that I have ever been critical of any of your posts on here whatsoever at all; in fact for any reason, so relax buddy.
Trev, you are a gentle person - a gentleman if you like - and I hope I'm mature enough to be able to distinguish between criticism of an opinion and criticism of a person. You have never been critical of me or my approach and if we choose to disagree on the details of the space blanket, I shall not take this personally. I'm not particularly relaxed at present - compared to my usual self at least - but that has nothing to do with OM and I hope I haven't spilled any tension over into my posts.
>I wonder why the hood is there really. Is it because the designer believes the age old falacy of the most of the body's heat loss going out through the head? This has been conclusively long since been proved not to be true. Why is the hood there then, to provide wind or rain protection? I think not.
This was the passage of your previous post that stimulated a reply. I see the traditional space blanket as fairly useless except in a few specific cases because I'm a physicist by training and understand the advantages and limitations of radiant barriers. We use them enormously in my domain - satellite engineering - because there's not enough air in space to rob an object of heat by free or forced convection. However, the Space Poncho is a poncho first and foremost; and a metallized radiant shield second in my opinion. As such it needs a hood precisely for wind and rain protection. I disagree with your assessment on that one.
If you look at it like that, you see a cheap, single-use piece of basic rain & wind protection with the added benefit of being an effective radiant barrier, returning a proportion of heat that would otherwise be lost. It's won't be as good at this job as the Blizzard jacket but it costs much less, weighs much less and takes up much less space. I would say that the niche market is the Blizzard jacket really. I've met dozens of people who carry a space blanket in the hills but so far never met anyone who'd adopted the approach of using a Blizzard jacket as a repeated-use insulation piece. If I want kit to be reusable, I wouldn't buy layers of metallized plastic. I'd get a nice belay jacket and a decent rainshell. My belief is that Blizzard market their product as reusable to capture some of the UL and adventure race users that might want to try their bags as for more than one trip.
Anyway, Alex should have some valid input to his fledgling website about the care that has to be taken in wording the claims of a product for sale in the UK. I'm sure despite all the differences of opinion, that's what he's after by participating in the forum.
Yeah mate I would have thought and hoped so too really actually; as that was the spirit in which the input was given. If I see an outdoors kit claim I think is a bit 'too good to be true' it usually is in my opinion and experience, and so I openly say so - whatever the product is. I am open and honest in conversation here just as I am in speaking to folk; and in fact if anything often folk say I can be too open and honest on some occasions. I do not believe this is a classic example of that here though to be honest.
I think for definite sure the claim on the website of that item keeping one 'completely dry' is nonsense. It is a nonsense statement, like as is the claim on the poncho of being 100% waterproof. If, as I have done, you had been in the past involved in writing 'copy' for inventions claims, then you get to learn pretty quick what common everyday sayings are rather silly and unsuitable for writing into product 'claims' notices and descriptions. Those are actually two textbook 'no no' classic ones there, as there is just no way at all they can be substantiated to proven fact even in repeated product tests.
I feel very personally affronted at the accusations thrown at me there of 'not being clean', ie dealing dirty, or being insulting. I do not believe I at all was. As for being 'confrontational', that is just plain silly; as one cannot say one welcomes any feedback, then turn around and cry foul if one does not like some of what one hears there then in reply! That is ridiculous! I have been polite at all times, have not insulted the man, nor have ridiculed his product. In fact I believe I am one of the very few persons here all through that actually gave ideas for developing further the product from the very beginning of the OM discussion here, into possible other product versions. All I have said is ridiculous however is the attitude shown to me here, and too a couple of product claims that are rather Disneyland sounding, to be perfectly honest. I stated clearly other than that it was a viable idea, if for somewhat limited usefulness in my opinion.
Good to know! As you so rightly say, getting wet doesn't matter whether from inside or out, its not comfortable and you are right, the metalized PET doesn't breathe.
Interestingly, you didn't wanna listen to me when I said those two self same things here Alex!
I recall the description of the 'patient' or the casualty as above from your web site - who will quite possibly maybe be lying down wearing the emergency space poncho, as not all patients of hypothermia are able to be walking wounded - in which case there too it will not keep them completely dry. I am an ex army infantry section medic, and can tell you I would not just trust to one of those to keep such a patient of mine dry in the wet. I would want a poncho normal strung over the top of them for starters in that kind of a situation.
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John, I too stated the similar Blizzard product has a hood ok. Sorry you seem to think - quite wrongly as it happens - that I was being at all critical of you upon your reasons for posting about this product here. I do not think actually that I have ever been critical of any of your posts on here whatsoever at all; in fact for any reason, so relax buddy. I still think the points I raised are valid questions and deserve valid answers though. I also stated I would certainly consider buying one or two of the product as is now for inclusion into my own first aid kits for personal useage. I too stated as you rightly say, I would not use them due to their extra cost as giveaway items for walkers in the need of a blanket on the hill yes. I have the cheaper metal foil blankets just for that job. I asked questions too of just how this product has evolved to its current configuration, and the full range of claims for the product and this is in no ways unusual; and is standard fare as you probably actually are aware really for any invention at all.
John I do not disagree with you that this product as is now has good uses and a place in outdoors survival kit for the hill; but where we differ I think right now is simply that you believe that role and that place to be somewhat bigger than I myself do for the product in its current configuration. I think it is more limited to specialist niche uses quite possibly, for mountain marathon runners, day walkers etc right now only in this current one version. 
I have owned before in the past Gore Tex jackets that did not keep me completely dry! This item is certainly gonna help but really is not going to keep one completely dry at all, not out in the rain.
Being dry is not just from rain coming down, but from wind-blown rain too coming at you sideways on, and water droplets in heavy mist, and also condensation from sweating within the garment. Both the statements of 100% dry or completely dry are misleading to the extreme in my opinion! Plain ridiculous claim that one is! Get real please my mate!
