 lined approach shoes and boots comes down to how appropriate they are for the activity", it leaves me a bit puzzled. Other than water or bog too deep for the shoe, what sort of activity would you see as appropriate or inapproriate for a waterproof trail shoe? (Nb. more as opposed to a non-membrane shoe, i.e. not meaning to open upa massive shoe vs boot debate...  )
It's the water or bog too deep for the shoe bit Matt. If you choose to take a route where the ground is boggy beyond the depth of the shoe then you can't expect a lined shoe to keep you waterproof. For example I would happilly walk from the layby at Milestone Buttress to Llyn Bochlwyd in approach shoes even after rain (primarily a rocky path that does allow groundwater to flow over the surface but no boggy ground), but I wouldn't expect them to keep me dry if I went from the main car park at Idwal Cottage across to Llyn Bochlwyd as the ground below Y Gribin is likely to be boggy.
Lined approach shoes can be very useful for when your route is along well drained ground (paths, ridges etc) but there's a good chance of a downpour. One thing that peopple tend to forget is that Gore Tex membranes rely on keeping the membrane and other surfaces clean. If you don't clean your boots/shoes properly then the membrane gets blocked and won't work. I'm certainly not saying that non-lined boots and approach shoes are inferior, just that both have their place and that used sensibly and within the limitations of their design lined boots and approach shoes are a viable option. As already stated, we should have a choice of lined or non-lined 
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 some people have never had a problem with texy lined footwear, me for one and dave for another it seems. some people always have problems with them. would that not indicate that perhaps the fit or the way the shoe is worn is wearing holes in the membrane?
Well, it's a hypothesis. And from a purely logical point of view I can see why it's a starting point..... But then I'm afarid that's as far as I can follow it. I honestly can't see much scope for differences in fit or 'the way the shoe is worn' that mean that my (and many others') membranes fail, often rapidly, while others like yours don't. I'm certainly talking about shoes and boots that are a good, comfortable fit (and I've had 30-odd years of finding outdoor footwear that fits, so I don't think I get it wrong too often...). And walking generally involves putting one foot in front of the other. Sorry, I'm not meaning to be overly-flippant there Parky, but can you actually expand on your hypothesis and suggest the types of fit or wear that you think might contribute to the difference?
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 just a hypothesis matt. when out i see countless people whose boots/shoes are done up rather differently to mine in that they are loose whilst mine are always snug about my foot and my foot moves very little inside the shoe. i would guess that those whose footwear is worn loose means more rubbing of the membrane and holes appearing in it; perhaps? if i had a pair that leaked suddenly i would cut them up to see where the problem was to identify if it was a wear problem or a materials problem.
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 I guess that conditions above nicely describe the sort of semi casual conditions in which a lot of these are used. The much slower drying speed isn't half as bad then either - you can just change your shoes when you get back home. For multi day trips across potentially boggy terrain with streams etc they are of course an amazingly bad idea What you want there is non absorbent shoes - it'll be intriguing to see if the pending ion mask/mesh stuff can provide something like this. One other difference might be walking speed as a percentage of your 'natural' walking speed. If you're just strolling around then your feet won't produce much heat and so not dry out half as well.
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 Can I add some grit to your hypothesis, Parky - the sort that finds its way down the side of the sole and rubs against the membrane.
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 And heathery bits 
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 if i had a pair that leaked suddenly i would cut them up to see where the problem was to identify if it was a wear problem or a materials problem.
If I had a pair that leaked suddenly, they'd be back to the shop! Not much likelihood of a replacement if I've been at them with a craft knife....
I think there are two separate questions to be considered in the above discussion. Whether gtx (or any other membrane) is worth having built into any walking footwear; and secondly whether a membrane is worth having in an approach shoe. I have had mostly positive experiences of gtx membranes in boots but am not particularly tempted to buy an approach shoe with a liner. For me, the approach shoe is best suited to warmer, drier weather and faster activities. Both of which would be accompanied by hot sweaty feet in my case and, just as I wouldn't wear a membrane jacket for running, I wouldn't want a membrane around my feet. I've had a total of four pairs of boots with gtx liners and four without since my feet stopped growing as a teenager. My olders gtx lined fabric boots were from Trezeta. When I first bought them, I walked into a loch up to my ankles and plodded about in them for a good half hour. No water got in as you would hope of brand new boots. The thing is, they passed the test again when I was ready to retire them five or six years later (the heel cup had collapsed, the sole had worn bare and the suede was cracking...). However, by this time the dwr was gone and nothing I tried was able to replace it so they quickly wetted out and then stopped breathing. Much the same story happened to the boots I got to replace those (Meindls); I never once thought that the membrane had leaked but they did get humid leading to cold damp feet on a few occasions. So these days I don't have a strong preference; if the boots are good - suitable, well made, the right price... then I'm not too concerned whether they have a membrane or not. But in the half dozen pairs of trail / approach shoes I have owned, I have yet to be persuaded that a membrane is worth the extra cost. John
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I don;t know if you guys agree, but the waterproof socks get cold when initally dunked in water (if wearing with none waterproof footwear). I found my sealskins go very cold in winter when they get wet on the outside. Over time they get wark again. If you are dunking them in cold puddles or streams a lot I would guess they would stay cold. I also find that my foot is still damp probably from sweat. IT is not a problem as it is a comfortable dampness. I guess it is like the vapour barrier in cold climates, you sweat but not excessively as the body manages the degree of wetnes around the skin. It gets to the level of dampness that is comfortable for the skin to stay healthy and then maintains it. I like the non membrane shoes myself. I know the membrane prevents drying on multi days. My old Scarpa SLs dry out a lot quicker than my Asolo Flame GTXs despite being a heavy, thick leather boot that was never properly maintained so wet out every trip really badly. I think on a longer walking holiday say based around hostels, B&B or hotels the non-membrane boots and shoes are better as they can be dried overnight quite easily without excessive heat. My membrane boots tak a week to fully dry out unless I use several changes of newspaper in them.
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And pointy, pokey, gorse prickles.
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And pointy, pokey, gorse prickles. are best avoided...
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..easier said than done, they burrow through leggin's and socks.
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And pointy, pokey, gorse prickles.
are best avoided...
And heathery bits very true
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which brings nicely onto the other point...eventually. care. i'm rather anal about footwear care (no kidding!). especially when it's dry (ish) and your boots (which will encompass anything you put on your feet) don't need cleaning so much but i always rinse them out after an outing. you'd be amazed at just how much muck comes out of them. this fine stuff will successfully and in short time grind anything to bits inside the boot and especially a realtively delicate membrane i would imagine. my boots are always cleaned after an outing both outside and inside with an occasional turn in the washing machine in the case of my inov8s. generally, i don't like lined footwear but unfortunately you don't have a choice in many instances. well designed and made boots don't need a meebrane and those that have one you will hear very little about them leaking because they didn't leak before they put the membrane in. they have succumbed to customer presure due to their misguided belief that because a texy thing syays you need it you must have it. membrane have alowed boots to be manufactured much more cheaply for more profit as the material are cheaper than decent leather. however, if you want lightweight then you don't really have a choice. i just found it strange that some people always seem to have problems with membranes and others don't just like blisters. it could be huge coincidence but i think that's unlikely so there is probably another explanation for it, whether that is correct or not? well? john, depending upon the boots and what they looked like they would probably go back to the shop but i have a relatively low tolerance of kit that doesn't work and the brand is viewed with great care for any future purchases from them. i wouldn't mind destroying something just to see if it's the concept that doesn't work or something else. if it turned out to be wear then i would have to approach how i used them differently to avoid it happening again. if it was material failure, depending upon mood, i would send them back to the manufacturer describing what i'd found. if they told me to naff off, so be it. my natural curiosity of why something doesn't work or why it does gets the better of me far too often. i've been prodded along this route, i think, due to the rather large sum i've spent on kit over the past few years in search of what works nicely for me as i like comfort. i think there is far, far too much received wisdom out there about kit and most of it is total tosh so i like to see for myself. (gawd he's waffling again)
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which brings nicely onto the other point...eventually. care. i'm rather anal about footwear care (no kidding!). especially when it's dry (ish) and your boots (which will encompass anything you put on your feet) don't need cleaning so much but i always rinse them out after an outing. you'd be amazed at just how much muck comes out of them. this fine stuff will successfully and in short time grind anything to bits inside the boot and especially a realtively delicate membrane i would imagine. my boots are always cleaned after an outing both outside and inside with an occasional turn in the washing machine in the case of my inov8s.
I strongly suspect this is a more likely reason for why you and I never have issues with leaking lined boots than the fit. Whether wet or dry I clean my boots thoroughly, inside and out, following use. I always remove the laces, open the footwear up as much as possible and use a toothbrush to brush any foreign objects off the membane. Yes it's time consuming, but if it makes an expensive pair of boots/approach shoes last then it's well worth it.
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...umm... I'm a boot cleaner too... but not as 'anal' as our dear Parky... for now at least! John
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I am walking the Camino this fall and I would really love a pair of the Stratosphere ev high - Unfortunately - no one ships these to the US.
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