Hot threads > [Walking and Climbing]

On the whole I'm happy to share the moor with the military.

They let me know 6 weeks in advance where they're going to do live firing and I stay clear.

But on Sunday I planned to walk out from Belstone, going around Steeperton and keeping to the streams as much as possible so the dug could stay wet and cool.  I hadn't expected the army to be out in numbers with gun fire and smoke, on a Sunday afternoon.  It was a 'no firing' day so I assume they were firing blanks but I changed my route to avoid getting too close.

So should they be doing those sorts of 'simulated battle' activities on the open moor at times when it's 'open to all'?

And had I carried on walking where I'd intended (into the thick of it) would someone have 'politely' told me to f*** off?

'When the brit's open fire, the enemy duck. When the enemy opens fire, the brit's duck. When the merkins open fire, everyone ducks!'

To the original question, it seems a bit off to me that they should be out in a public access area doing anything like that. They've got their run of the ranges 5 days a week. That should be more than enough.

I like to think I'd have walked right on through them, but I'm not sure I wouldn't have been put off by the uncertainty of what they were doing and what they were firing. And the likely confrontation would in any case spoil what's meant to be an enjoyable day out.

Not very nice MoS  Seems a pity to me.  The phrase 'milking it' occurs.

I'm sure someone will be along on this thread soon to tell us that training needs to be done so we shouldn't complain

It's not just 5 days a week though - Willsworthy range often has firing both Saturday and Sunday the same weekend    See here 

Though if you have a linear route which may take you 'near' a range later in the day, they often finish early (3-4pm) if not night firing too.  You can tell from a distance if visibility is good cos the flags come down  - we had a pleasantly unexpected early evening walk through Tavy Cleave instead of skirting the range as planned last year.

Edit to add:

I'd like to think that like Matt, I too would walk on through.  We did as teens a couple of times and experienced  indifference apart from dirty looks.

Well, I grew up near a military training ground, and, as a kid, used to encounter blank fire exercises on a regular basis (it was supposed to be an entirely blank fire ground, but we once found a short section of live GMPG rounds.  And yes, I do know how to tell the difference...) 

We once came across a bloke who, for some reason, wasn't carrying a rifle, but a stick, shouting 'bang'.  So we joined in...

It seems unusual to me for even blank fire exercises to be conducted on open access days.

As I understand it there isn't a problem to walk right through if they are dry firing. They'll 'work' around you as it where. It's just dartmoor that well will dry fire on.

> To the original question, it seems a bit off to me that they should be out in a public access area doing anything like that. They've got their run of the ranges 5 days a week. That should be more than enough.

I guess the TA has got train sometime as well.

Thanks for the comments guys

It's only the third time in over ten years that I've had an encounter with the military which has resulted in a decision to change route, so that's not too bad I guess  But I'd like to have known that this exercise was taking place last Sunday as I'd have avoided Steeperton.

Although it may be ok in theory to walk straight through them, I couldn't do it, I'd find it far too intimidating and sharing my walk with people firing guns and letting off smoke bombs is not my idea of a nice day out on the moor. 

I wondered if it was the TA and yes I accept that they need to use the moor at weekends. 

Couldn't the firing notice contain information about their activities (even though it's off range and not live firing) so people could stay clear?  I'd have appreciated having that information and gone elsewhere, although I suppose it could draw in onlookers and I'm not sure if they'd want that.

It still seems a bit off to me that they don't stay within the confines of the military ranges for these types of exercise. No problem at all if they want to 'yomp' around the moor carrying full kit or anything like that, but once they start firing (even blanks) and letting off smoke and flashbangs or whatever then it strikes me as a step too far. I wouldn't expect to find them doing that down my street so why is it ok in an open access area of countryside? They should use it on equal terms with anyone else who has legitimately chosen to be there.

I don't think it's fair for the public to be expected to recognise the difference between blank and live fire, nor then to be expected to blithely ignore the former. Never mind the effect it'll have on the poor animal if they happen to be walking with a dog (or riding a horse, etc.).

> It's just dartmoor that well will dry fire on.

Sorry I meant it's not just dartmoor.

> I don't think it's fair for the public to be expected to recognise the difference between blank and live fire, nor then to be expected to blithely ignore the former. Never mind the effect it'll have on the poor animal if they happen to be walking with a dog (or riding a horse, etc.).

I sort of see your point, but at the end of the day if your not on a range with flags flying, the men have big bright yellow things on the end of their guns and their not going nuts about you being anywhere near a live firing it's not that hard is it. This time of year dogs should be a lead on access land (that's the law) and there is no right to go riding on access land. I think it's better to share the land then close off openland for dry firing.

I'm with you on this, Caveman.

If it's a choice between military training and recreational walking, I feel that the squaddies have a more pressing need.

You're never going to be in any danger on a blank firing exercise and, believe me, you would be "instantly informed" if you wandered anywhere near a live small arms exercise.  Anyone who walks regularly on north Dartmoor understands the importance of recognising munitions, not handling them and reporting their location so it doesn't take much more effort to recognise a blank firing attachment on the end of a rifle. 

On a tiny island like ours, there are very few training areas large enough for field exrecises so we can't expect the Army to go elsewhere .  As for the effect on dogs and horses, these animals are always jumpy and should be kept under proper control.  What happens if you get some unexpected thunder while walking?

Don't forget that TA soldiers work full-time and are simply not able to train during the working week.  With TA personnel being deployed on operations, we should support training efforts that could mean the difference between life and death on active service.

I'm quite happy to share the moor with the military but I do draw the line at getting caught up in something resembling real fighting.  The knowledge that I'm not in any real danger doesn't make it any less intimidating.

caveman john wrote (see)

.............

 I think it's better to share the land then close off openland for dry firing.

Jake wrote (see)

I'm with you on this, Caveman.

If it's a choice between military training and recreational walking, I feel that the squaddies have a more pressing need.

  

It doesn't have to be one or the other, the military need Dartmoor for training and the public have a right to enjoy their National Park, there's room for both if we're prepared to share and compromise.
I respect their right to seal off areas of the moor each week and do what they need to do without the public getting in their way. 

I'd like them to respect my right to use the moor without feeling I have to re route to avoid getting caught up in a 'battle'.  

So either keep this sort of exercise on the ranges when they're going to be closed anyway.  Or if it has to be at weekends (for the TA) add the information to the firing notice.

> I'd appreciate knowing where they're going to be dry firing so I could avoid the area, in the same way that they currently give notice of live firing.

(http://www.dartmoor-npa.gov.uk/dartmoor_and_its_military_use__2005_status)

It say hear that:-

"The noises that may be heard during dry tactical training are blanks and pyrotechnics, and are of no danger to the public.  If a dry tactical exercise is expected to cause significant inconvenience, details are given on the firing notice and sentries are posted to give warning to other users."

> public have a right to enjoy their National Park

It's interesting to point out the ranges are not open access land.

Hmmm.

What an odd set of replies to the original poster.

As said above, someone will post that the training is essential, and it's going to be me.

How many of us (me included) have NEEDED to cross any training area?

As a cross section of the population walkers can be some of the most selfish people in any country (it's to do with the type of occupation/postition many walkers have, and has been born out in many surveys, or even just ask many an outdoor instructor).

The military need to train, while most walkers just enjoy the chance to share the same terrain.

If any of us feel that we should not be sharing training areas over the weekend, or any other time, then it is us that should stay away.

Many of us on this site have undertaken all sorts of outdoor training, ranging from classroom work to outdoor courses. This training helps us to be safer on the hill, or have better responses in the event of an accident occuring.

SO, if the idea of the military (as it could be from any of the services these days*) using the training area during the weekend seems unfair to you, ask yourself this question:

As one of our countries main enemies has the stated intention of capturing a British serviceman/woman who has strayed due to bad drills, and then skinning them alive while videoing them (to post it on the internet), would you really want them to not to have as much training as possible in order to avoid being tortured to death on video?.

I for one am happy to share or avoid training areas.

For those who may not be aware, the TA often make up one in ten of operationally deployed personnel, while the Royal Navy often make up large numbers as well.

I'm sorry if I am coming across quite strongly, but WE are only generally out for pleasure, and I also note that none of us have the military coming to OUR places of work and disrupting our day just for fun.

Ray Britton wrote (see)

 I also note that none of us have the military coming to OUR places of work and disrupting our day just for fun.

Have to disagree with that one Ray - happens round here all the time

It must be for fun that the flyboys and army helicopters regularly go across parts of the countryside below 200 feet - which I believe is against their own rules.

Just this week on Dartmoor whilst working there were very low jets - tornadoes I think - I nearly had a seizure -let alone the horses which were being handled at that time by inexperienced children.

I have photographic proof on my own land (where we market garden full time and keep horses) from a month or so ago.  We often get chinooks flying by very low - banking round the spurs of the hill - there are are often guys at the open side doors waving back at my 'waving'

 The trees are mature oaks with a breath of 60+ feet.

Edit to add I know that isn't a chinook Trevor

Mole. As you read my post (in order to disagree) I am not sure why you think the flyers ( a Merlin in your pic) do it for fun.

The flying you mention is not illegal (which you could check for yourself, or make a low flying complaint if you feel that way).

Lastly I hope the inexperienced children were wearing hi viz vests (which are available free from the M.O.D.) or it could be said you were ignoring their health and safety (as you know aircraft fly low there)*.

*Helicopter pilots always keep a look out for horse riders/handlers wearing hi viz vests, even though it is not the easiest thing to see when flying at 80+knots and at low level!.

IF you have researched this at all you would know that RAF/army/navy helicopter pilots take the issue of not scaring horses very seriously, and have several threads on their forums on this very matter. And with a little more thought it would be obvious that many of the aircrew are horse riders themselves and so know the problem very well!

You may guess from my response that this is not the first time I have heard comments like yours!, I must also pont out that I have NEVER heard a complaint from someone rescued from a cliff face, or after being airlifted to hostital (and having their life saved despite the need for a landing and subsequent horse scaring). Nor have I heard of a farmer complaining after he/she has had cattled rescued from floods, or feed dropped to stranded animals.

I must further add that not so long ago a girl went missing near where I live. In an effort to find her the local police helicopter searched all the local fields (often military sea kings join in too). Sadly she had been murdered and left in a ditch, but before she was found, many locals had conplained about the noise of the helicopter (one of the quietest aircraft flying). Perhaps they were happy to have a young local girl left to decompose, rather than have their "eastenders" disturbed!

Sorry Ray

I don't have a problem with rescue/police/ambulance helicopters doing legitimate work/ training and am surprised that you feel the need to equate that with what I was describing.  To me that's like comparing army training their tank drivers on a public highway with real police/ambulance work. 

I don't have a problem  with military training (edit to add apart from the huge swathes of Dartmoor which are often unaccessable) - the area on Dartmoor I was describing was not open moorland but farmland all the way along the valley - near North Bovey.

Purely military training  - very low - fast flying - unadvertised - across my land (or others  where unwanted) is an oppression to me.

Very emotional there Ray

I don't mind letting the military use MYmoor when I am on it. My SARDA dog embarrassed one or two snipers in his time by compromising their positions by indicating their 'concealed' presence in the middle of the night, so I guess I owe them one.

One night I was running out on Eylesbarrow when the dog indicated on a small group of bootnecks who were doing their best to keep quite and out of the way. perhaps a few months after that they may have been in Afghanistan... Maybe the one who said good evening to me was shot dead in Basra a few years ago, who knows.

But they have a job to do, and defence estates do work in partnership with the DNPA to resolve user conflict as much as posible, and to support the landsacpe. Let us not forget that it is the military (RAF RN and ARMY) who run / support and bear the cost of the Ten Tors event every year at great cost to the MOD for very little gain with already overstretched resources.

However, as the OP suggests it can be daunting to someone who happens upon 'play-war-like' activity with which they have no real gauge or concept of likely outcomes...

I think I managed to say all of that without swearing once....

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Feck!