Don't worry, I know it's your job, and without folks like yourself and Peter Clinch, then I would look picky!.
Ah; those were details that weren't provided with your original comment, and I'm a stickler for even-handedness... And who else would the people complain to, if not the police? I doubt if many people have the number for the CAA, and I doubt it's manned outside office hours...
Hmmm, what colour scheme did you imagine it would be liveried in?, and secondly, as you yourself mention the CAA without any prompting from my story, then maybe you answer your own question
I remember hearing the police saying that they quite like the fact that the chopper is obvious,
A further comment from you on the percieved (with police info) ability of the public to recognise the police helicopter.
As for gunships, that is a bit heavy handed for you isn't it?
Although I have always liked the idea of the police having CH54 Tarhe's (sky cranes to mortals) so they could move rescue teams and vehicles in one go, as well as treat injured folks on scene. Maybe the police could buy up some old Lynx's too (god knows where they would get the money to fund them), as nothing would out run them!
> Hmmm, what colour scheme did you imagine it would be liveried in?
That's a bit of a chicken and egg question, isn't it? If I can see it, I can probably identify it as a police chopper from the colour scheme. If I can't see it, I don't know what colour it is, or what it is...
> and secondly, as you yourself mention the CAA without any prompting from my story
My point was that almost everyone will know the number for the police. Almost no-one will know the number for the CAA, or get a reply if they do. So they'll phone the police.
They don't always have the sun light on; quite often, they're using only IR.
I'm just arguing the logic, not the real point...
> As for gunships, that is a bit heavy handed for you isn't it?
Not when you're surrounded by skitters like I am...
Just for arguments sake, I think you may find that very few people know the number for their local police HQ, or local station. I hope you were not advocating calling treble nine!
And we'll have none of that "look it up online" nonsense, as the CAA is listed too
What I will say is you need to gen up on your recognition, so you can identify the police helicopter from it sound alone, just like I do
Now for the real question:
Not when you're surrounded by skitters like I am...
What are skitters?*
*Isn't it awful when so many folks spend their spare time online, that the community descends into skitterness (clearly my made up word there)
I've done a bit more research this week and learned a lot more about the military on Dartmoor and public access. I've also discovered that you can phone up Okehampton Training Camp and get to speak to the chap in charge
I'll start off by giving them a well deserved pat on the back, I think the military do a great job keeping the public informed of 'live firing' on Dartmoor. The information is communicated clearly in a variety of ways and in lots of places. There is no excuse for anyone not to be aware of the warning system that's in place. The firing ranges are clearly marked on OS maps and the Firing zones A,B and C should be familiar to everyone who uses the North moor.
I wanted to be more clear about 'dry firing', where it takes place and whether I could find out in advance, thus being able to avoid it in future. I hadn't actually come across the term 'dry firing' until it was used on this thread.
As caveman john pointed out in his last post, there is a distinction between the 'danger areas' where live firing takes place and the 'training areas' as shown on the map below. I guess there are historical reasons for that, the danger areas having shrunk within the original shared boundary?
Finally, I followed up Ray's suggestion to contact the military direct, thanks for that Ray and thanks for the phone numbers, Wayne.
I phoned the ops room (01837 650010) yesterday and Colonel Tony Clark, Commandant of Dartmoor Training Area phoned me back this morning. We had a long and useful chat. I told him of this discussion on OM and he was happy for me to quote these words which he says he repeats often and passses on to all those who train on Dartmoor, I think it says a lot about his attitude -
"We care for the National Park and recognise that we share Dartmoor and are considerate of other users"
The 'military mantra' for Dartmoor? I like it
He confirmed that 'dry firing' involving the firing of blanks only takes place on the 'training area' (see second map). That helps me in that if I want to avoid it completely I know I won't encounter dry firing' outside those areas.
But there is no mechanism in place to give advance information about 'dry firing' and that sort of detailed information wouldn't be readily available to the general public if they enquired.
It was good to discover that I could speak directly to Colonel Clark and have my questions answered. I appreciate him taking the time and trouble to speak to me.
I'd sum up by saying that there is bound to be conflicting interests in an area where the training activites of the military co-exist with the purposes of a National Park.
But it seems to me that to a large extent the arrangement of 'sharing' does work. The proof is, the military can close a range and use it for live firing during the day, the flags come down and I can go out and wild camp on it at night when they've finished with it.
But there are situations, like the one I encountered on Sunday 21 June, when it felt a bit too much like 'a battle zone' to me, it hasn't happened very often, I admit, but I wish it were possible to know the when and where information about 'dry firing' in a similar way to how we are notified of 'live firing'.
Just for arguments sake, I think you may find that very few people know the number for their local police HQ, or local station. I hope you were not advocating calling treble nine!
0845 6060606
That's the national enquiry line for the rozzers. It's advertised plenty.
Thanks for all that info, MoS, but how would you have found all those numbers etc if you weren't posting on OM with it's clutch of ex-army peeps to pass on info? I wouldn't have known where to start...
I hadn't heard the term 'dry-firing' previously, either. I still would not (in your place) want to be anywhere near dry firing - one does read occasionally about training exercises where soldiers have been accidentally given live rounds and have ended up shooting a colleague. Include me out.
The contact information and telephone number is at the bottom of the Firing Notice on the Dartmoor Training Area website but I doubt I'd have thought to give them a ring without the prompting from other posters.
I think folk's attitude to 'dry firing' and how close you'd want to get to it varies very much depending on the individual and yes, even 'dry firing' isn't without danger. I can't remember the exact details because our conversation covered a lot, but Colonel Clark did mention that there were safe distance limits regarding blank firing and the public. So that must mean that they would stop if you got too close.
On the Sunday when I encountered 'dry firing' I kept away because I was nervous of the whole situation and I didn't want to get in the way. As I now understand it, in that sort of situation the people involved aren't unaproachable, although obviously you wouldn't want to walk towards them when they were firing, it makes sense to wait until a lull, although that raises the question, how would you know they'd stopped?.
So in theory I could have gone over to ask about what was going on and perhaps which side of Steeperton to go around if I'd wanted to continue on my pre-planned route. In reality, that sort of activity is just so alien and frightening to me that I wouldn't dream of getting too close.
That's not to say that I haven't bumped into the military when they've been out doing all sorts of other training activites and been able to say hello and have a quick chat in passing. But the 'dry firing' situation is very different to me.
..dry training can be carried out almost anywhere on military and public land. In the latter case the main proviso is maintaining a reasonable distance from the public, so they are not frightened by the noise or the sight of the soldiers pointing weapons at them (the current standard issue rifle, the SA80 is fitted with a 4x optical sight which the soldiers can use to observe members of the public, but this necessitates pointing the rifle at them).
> Just for arguments sake, I think you may find that very few people know the number for their local police HQ, or local station.
It's in the Yellow Pages, at the front, very easy to find. The CAA isn't. And most people probably have no idea that you should report aircraft incidents to the CAA.
Apologies for being unnecessarily argumentative; been very stressed recently, so more ansty than usual. You might suggest that pointless arguments won't help, and you'd be right...
The military map that shows the 'training area' boundary would be useful, Wayne. I can get a rough idea of where it lies from the map in the MoD leaflet on access, but a large scale version would be handy.
Anyone any idea if they're available to the general public? A quick google didn't come up with anything.
I was wondering if the training area boundary might be included on the OS and Harvey's maps but I guess it might be confusing. The 'firing ranges' being the most important ones.
Wayne T, please be careful if the map is "restricted". Sometimes there are things on maps which are not for general release for a reason (but I'm not saying that's the case here).
I was a little hesitant to go further with my help to MoS ( a lovely LADY, see I got it right), as it would be unlawful for me to pass on the map in question.
MoS, I am glad you got sorted in the end.
Personally I have not heard of troops being issued "live" ammunition on exercise (except blanks, which are actually live too) by mistake, ever.
The only place I have known soldiers to die was at Deepcut barracks (home of the RLC) where a SNCO recently said that "is it so slack here these days that the recruits get away with murder" before going very red in realising how that could be taken!
CP. Sorry to hear you have been stressed recently. I was genuinely looking forward to having a banterish exchange of pedantry with you! You know some folks may say we just argue for the sake of it
> Personally I have not heard of troops being issued "live" ammunition on exercise (except blanks, which are actually live too) by mistake, ever.
As I said earlier, when I was a kid playing in Hawley Woods (a purely dry training area with no access restrictions), we once found a section of belted 7.62mm live rounds; about 20 of them. Having been subjected to gory warning films at school, we were able to distinguish between live and blank rounds; there's a big difference between the crimped end of a blank (L13A2, apparently) and nice pointy end of a L2A2/4... I've no idea how they got there, and I can't remember what we did with them.
I spent most of my childhood in those woods, rootling round amongst the waste... the things we found...
CP, that was too picky even for you, not to mention taken out of context! (i.e., no one died).
To me the difference is massive, but to others, not always so. To get over this I always use modified drill rounds when giving lectures on alterative uses of ammunition, similar to the one in the link you provided, but in 5.56 and 9mm sizes.
probably inert ammo, looks like the real thing unlike blanks. Couple of ways to find out, one involves a bonfire, other involves a hammer and nail, both are dangerous
Wayne, thinking about it I can easily add the blue boundary to my Dartmoor Explorer Map, in fact I'll probably do that anyway, it will be a good exercise as it'll help me remember where it runs. Thanks for the offer of help, I'd love a copy of the Tors Range map, but don't put yourself out
Hi Wayne. I did say that it may not be the case here, BUT nearly all military maps have the restriction "limited distribution" (see the wording undeath it) which is the part that would make it unlawful for me to give them out.
As for Creden Hill, I already have some scale plans thanks.
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) by mistake, ever.
