There can be a million and one reasons why a farmer chooses a particular field to graze....and, I know it wasnt meant, but to suggest that a farmer may choose a field to graze cattle in because it has a PROW through it is just...laughable or something!
but what if the fields are not owned by the farmer?he just has permission to let his cows graze in them.never seen any calves in our fields,they are all fully grown males.
Yes, possibly laughable Simon. But what gets me wondering is why the farmer always chooses the particular field that has a PROW to graze his cattle. Close to me, theres a PROW that goes through a small field on a small hillside - three or four small fields, which could probably be one big field if so desired. Anyhoo, when sheep are grazing, the gates between all fields are open, and the sheep roam about through all four, across the hillside, as they see fit. If there's cows about, the farmer closes the gates and restricts the cows to the small field through which the PROW goes (the PROW is about 150-200 yards through that field, with entry/exit onto roads at either end). Bearing in mind this field is defined only by his fence - essentially, the whole hillside is one ordinary-sized continuous field. So why, when there are cows about, does he restrict them to the one fenced off bit of land through which a PROW goes? Is there any obvious reason? I know you obviously have a vested interest, what with your farming/union history, but don't assume that there aren't a few iffy farmers out there - in fact I bet you know there are. It's those 'million and one' reasons for grazing a particular field that those iffy farmers will churn out for justifying why they always choose the PROW field to graze their cattle - in the case of the iffy farmer, that's part of the problem.
It's all very well to keep posting 'mouth-zipped' smileys as if to suggest you're too tempted to post the gospel truth to enlighten us simple ordinary folk, but the fact remains that, in any walk of life, there are bad eggs. Same goes for farmers - there are some who will do whatever they can to discourage people walking across their land. And there are some farmers that are 1st class wa*kers - trust me, some of them are my 'friends' - in fact one such 'friend' has told me, over a few pints, the 'tricks' he employs to keep the public off his land in Wiltshire (I'm sure such tricks that you may already be aware of). Same goes for bridleways - how his item of big, heavy, rusting machinery just happens to break down (and thus be abandoned) conveniently blocking the bridleway entrance to his land from the country lane. You can as much as you like, but that's fact.
And what about the 'poisonous snakes' signs? Just a kindly farmer doing his samaritan bit to let those poor ignorant townfolk know that there's a billion-1 chance they'll be killed by an adder if they happen to use the PROW across his/her land? And that's just the most ridiculous - I've come across plenty of signs posted by farmers that are simply there to try and put off people from using the PROW (whether they have dogs or not).
I'm not saying all farmers are like that, and I accept that the (hopefully) majority couldn't give a toss whether a few ramblers/dog walkers/tourists/whatever wander across their field, but I simply know that some farmers do not want people on their land, regardless of whether such access is insignificant to their business. It's almost a psychological thing.
And Mick, a sign saying "No dogs, cows in field" is all very well, but where's the legal basis for that? If my neighbour hates dogs, can he put a sign up on the end of our street saying "No dogs, I don't like them!"?
Your last point was what I was trying to get at Michael.
In the case of a ProW, the stated sign would be illegal (in access terms) in as much as the farmer has absolutely no right to stop a dog walker crossing his land on a ProW, A sign "warning" of the dangers might be fine, but not one that infers that dogs are legally excluded from a ProW.
I get on fairly well with local farmers and landowners but I too know of some Aholes who graze stock in fields with a ProW just to be obstructive to legitimate ProW users when they have safer alternatives available.
Sometimes farmers have to graze cattle in fields with paths through them. The grass on them is a crop, just like wheat, peas, or whatever, and the farmer "harvests" it by grazing his animals there. If he can't graze stock there then it is of no economic value to him, and he'll have to buy more land at £1,000s per acre, if any is available, which it usually isn't. If that field is 20 per cent.of his holding then its effective loss could easily put him out of business. Of course he could graze different types of stock there, like sheep, but "mixed" farms like that are becoming rare -- most farmers these days have to specialize.
Of course there are bad farmers who try to block PROWS by putting up stupid "dangerous bull/cow/snake signs, but then there are bad walkers who drop cans or glass bottles.
I'm all for keeping PROWS open ( in fact we could do with a lot more around here), but I don't think that should be at the cost of putting farmers out of business.
And Mick, a sign saying "No dogs, cows in field" is all very well, but where's the legal basis for that? If my neighbour hates dogs, can he put a sign up on the end of our street saying "No dogs, I don't like them!"?
Presumably your neighbour doesn't own the street, whereas if a the farmer owns the field it's within his rights not to allow dogs if he feels problems may arise.
when did a dog last prey on a cow. no idea. ask the cows. they're big stupid animals hard wired to respond to what they see as a threat. as an example, today i knelt down to take some pictures of goats in a field. i was fairly close. when i stood up they ran hell for leather away. why? because i exihibited typical predator behaviour.
it's the hard wired behaviour to a perceived threat which is heightened when babies are involved that is important and nothing to do with whether or not it is an actual threat. nobody has told the cow otherwise. all animals behave in the same even humans.
you CHOOSE to walk through a field of cows with a dog. that's fine no problem with that at all. you do so with the knowledge and responsibility that cows may not like your dog. your actions demonstrate behaviour in light of a potential threat. just like a cow does.
the difference is your beaviour is reasoned, based upon experience and absorbtion of facts due to your much higher level of conciousness of the world. a cow doesn't have that benefit and responds only to its environment and its hard wired behaviour.
using a prow. well that's just fine too. is a dog legally allowed to walk a prow in law anywhere?. or does it go with you as your posssession. consequently you are totally and solely responsible for its behaviour and responses to it.
farmers shouldn't have cows in their fields? well how about the other way round. your dog attacks and injures a farmer's animals in a field. is it the farmer's fault for having the animals there or is it your fault?
A person walking a dog on a lead on a ProW has every rght to do so and no farmer can do a thing about it.
Obviously an out of control dog in the act of worrying livestock is a different prospect but then, it is an offence for a farmer to discharge a firearm on or in the vicinity of a ProW!
(not much consolation for the dog owner of course!)
There you go again Mick, - DOGS ARE REGARDED AS PROPERTY and attempting to stop a person using a ProW with their property is as illegal as insisting they leave their clothes behind.
Sometimes farmers have to graze cattle in fields with paths through them. The grass on them is a crop, just like wheat, peas, or whatever, and the farmer "harvests" it by grazing his animals there. If he can't graze stock there then it is of no economic value to him, and he'll have to buy more land at £1,000s per acre, if any is available, which it usually isn't. If that field is 20 per cent.of his holding then its effective loss could easily put him out of business. Of course he could graze different types of stock there, like sheep, but "mixed" farms like that are becoming rare -- most farmers these days have to specialize.
Of course there are bad farmers who try to block PROWS by putting up stupid "dangerous bull/cow/snake signs, but then there are bad walkers who drop cans or glass bottles.
I'm all for keeping PROWS open ( in fact we could do with a lot more around here), but I don't think that should be at the cost of putting farmers out of business.
Thanks Guy....you have saved me a huge amount of effort thinking of how to put it...
Michael...I'm not saying there arent idiots who are farmers...patently there are (as in any walk of life) but to suggest that your local farmer puts the amount of malice and aforthought into thinking up ways to cause the public tha maximum amount of disruption either credits him/her with more energy than most have or seriously misjudges the situation.......
The reason...and I am guessing here, but this is why I would allow sheep to wander about, but keep cattle tight on grass .
Sheep graze by scissoring the grass with their front teeth...this allows them to both cut the grass like a lawn mower, but also allows them to be very picky and only eat what they like...in addition, because they have small hooves and dont leave great piles of crap about (generally) they dont spoil ungrazed grass by tramping it down or crapping on it, so they like to be allowed a bit of freedom.
Cattle, on the other hand, pluck the grass with their tongues - so are quite undiscerning in what they eat, but can destroy ungrazed grass by lumbering over it with big feet, lying on it and crapping all over it...so, in general, it is better grass management to limit the area they can graze till it is cleaned up...then move them on. That is why you will aften see cattle limited as tyo how much they can move around, but sheep may be given a bit more fredom - and often why a field will be grazed by sheep followed by cattle, the sheep leave lots of not so nice bits, the cattle clean it up.
Just to be really awkward, there are now legal requirements on farmers to follow good agricultural practice to maintain the land in good heart (which is one of the reasons why Glastonbury had a holiday for a year a couple of years ago)...so a farmer may not have much of a choice in what he does...as he has to prove through his records that he has followed good practice etc etc etc.
I'm not going to add anymore to this debate...because I dont see the point to be honest. There is a conflict of interest between farmer and walker...and always will be. There will always be silly billies...on both sides. Thats life
In this case the court has ruled in favour of the walker...but has been very careful not to lay a precident. Lets wait to see if there is an appeal...and what happens then
Sometimes farmers have to graze cattle in fields with paths through them. The grass on them is a crop, just like wheat, peas, or whatever, and the farmer "harvests" it by grazing his animals there. If he can't graze stock there then it is of no economic value to him, and he'll have to buy more land at £1,000s per acre, if any is available, which it usually isn't.
Yes, I accept hat Guy. I'm not saying the farmer should never graze his cows on that field. What I want to know is why the farmer always chooses to graze his cows on the field through which the PROW passes, at the expense of the other 3 (identical) fields, which never benefit, as a crop, from the action of cows. Just seems a bit odd to me. Perhaps, when erecting his barbed wire fence arbitrarily, the farmer enclosed a section of hillside that just happens to have a section of grass that is most nutritious to cows... despite the fact that the rest of the hillside is identical, and the fenced field pretty much encloses the PROW as efficiently as it possibly could (i.e. it goes diagonally from corner to corner)
Michael....must admit now I'm puzzled too as to why he has fenced the land like this. Its not an SSSI by any chance...which can limit what is allowed to graze where?
"but to suggest that your local farmer puts the amount of malice and aforthought into thinking up ways to cause the public tha maximum amount of disruption either credits him/her with more energy than most have or seriously misjudges the situation......."
I would agree that it seems illogical - but then how much effort does it involve to drag a clapped out combine harvester (or whatever it was) into the ideal position to block access to a bridelway? A lot, I imagine. Effort better spent elsewhere (either 'farming' or playing with the kids). Trust me, some of the farmers I know (having grown up with them as schoolkids) are hell-bent on stopping people giong on their land. It's totally illogical - the effor they put in is totally out of proportion to the non-existent problem; in many cases the PROWs they are blocking are probably never used. But they'd rather spend a morning dragging a huge piece of metal with spiky bits on it across the entrance to a bridleway than spending it in bed, or playing football with their kids. But that's their mentality - in their minds, it's their land, and no other bugger is going to tramp across it, regardless of what the definitive map says.
I'm also aware of the different grazing 'styles' of different animals (i.e. that cows are not nibblers, and are less fussy, dragging up grass in their tongues). That still doesn't explain why my local farmer only chooses to graze his cows on one 1/4 of the identical hillside that he has arbitrarily fenced. And, I remind you, the one 1/4 that has the PROW running through it.
Again, I'm not saying all farmers are like this, but I know for a fact (literally from their mouths) that some farmers will do what they can to prevent access.
I'm giong to duck out now - don't want to seem like I'm farmer-bashing (I'm not). Just wanted to point out my own experiences of what I consider bad farmership (I know that's not a word, but I like it!)
Michael -- I don't know enough to comment on the sitiuation you describe. But, in general, any farmer who fails to properly use three out of four very similar fields available to him won't be in business very long.
As for the old combine being used to block access, that sort of thing does happen. A farmer around here seems to make a point of making sure a yard with a path through it is always ankle deep in cow shit. Just proves that, as Simon wrote, there are idiots in every walk of life.
I think that we broadly agree that there are excesses on BOTH sides of the debate but for me what sparked off the disagreement was Mick's very simplistic generalisation thus:-
