Gear

> my experience is that when you have to use a hardshell on a walk after resisting puttin it on when everyone else have put theirs on the wet pertex maked the hardshell less comfortable than the wet fleece.

Take the wet Pertex off, then..?

Which of course, you can't do with a soft 'shell', so you'd have to resort to putting the hard shell on earlier.  Then you have two layers of not-so-breathable material between you and the outside world.

Martin Carpenter wrote (see)

Well thats what a VR - and the sundy cousins - basically is

Yes there aren't any huge advantages over a fleece/windshirt combination. but there are some small - medium sized ones once it gets cold enough to be sure you'll want the warmth from a lined windshirt.

(Fine temperature adjustment, the hood, no billowing etc)

I 'd have thought that temperature adjustment wasn't any more difficult with a fleece/windshirt. If a softshell is too warm you can un zip it a bit (like a fleece/windshirt) or remove it but when you remove it you loose both the insulation and wind resistance, too cold and you need to add an extra layer either under or over just like a fleece/windshirt. As for the hood there's always the option of a microfleece hat/balaclava below the windshirt hood and if you need to add a waterproof layer the hood on a windshirt is less bulky than one on a softshell, should you decide to remove the windshirt it'll fit in your pocket. In addition a hard faced softshell it likely to be more restrictive under a waterproof than a fleece and windshirt combined and bulky if you size it to go over an extra layer for those times when it isn't warm enough on it's own.

The concept is good however, 1 garment in place of 3 but in execution it doesn't work as well in a variety of conditions. That there are so many variations in softshell jackets (even within one manufacturers range) suggests that even the manufacturers can't define what exactly a softshell should be. If you can get one to work for you then good because you've simplified your clothing arrangements but to do that you need to know what you expect from it and where you're prepared to compromise. Remember the early attempts at softshell before they decided to market it as softshell, a reversable fleece jacket with a pertex shell. Cold, windy and showery wear it pertex side out, too warm, no rain but wanting to avoid windchill? wear it pertex side in.

Well microadjustments are easier as they can put vents in which cut through both layers (the windshirt and the insulation) at once. For a hood you need to find a windshirt with a hood then a fleece with a hood and then have them fit each other....

Fundamentally I think there's a philosophical difference between something you intend to wear all day - as with lined windshirts - and things you intend to take on/off a fair bit etc, as with windshirts.

Shows with the pockets too I guess. We're really not that far apart - I'd certainly give up lined windshirts before normal ones. I do reckon they're useful in their place though  

> Well microadjustments are easier as they can put vents in which cut through both layers (the windshirt and the insulation) at once.

I think this is the killer feature about old style softshells. venting that works. well if you wear it next to the skin anyway. This also makes them harness friendly as changing layers are be a pain. Well tucking them back in anyway.

The more you read the more confusing it becomes. I'm more than familiar with layering after 30 odd years of playing in the mountains - most of that in Scotland where your gear will get tested to the limit if you're out all year round.

Think the answer is simple - if the specs look right, it fits, is comfortable and comes at the right price, go for it. Whih is exactly what I'm going to do next. Time for reading's over, time for action's here folks - and the gear will arrive in time for a trip to Kintail coming up soon. Lots of snow by the looks of it after the past few days in the Highlands.

We'll see how the kit performs and I'll maybeez report back.

Peter,

I'm gonna take a chance and send you a video by "Marmot".  Now I'm a big pile/pertex fan in cold weather but that's just me.  Like you alluded to, there's a lot out there; hence the video I'm linking you to.  Actually, it says a lot of what this thread has already talked about.  There are two videos on the site.  The second one is the most informative. 

It sounds like you've got a lot of outdoor experience but I thought I'd send it to you anway. 

LOL.

Marmot Layering System 

Dan S.

Cheers Dan - I'll take a look but have now decided to buy ME's Astron hoody in a deal with a microfleece (worth £40RRP - check out Facewest) thrown in. Gives me a few layering options, which is what I was looking for. The thread was really initiated to test whether anyone had views about the Astron or Rab's Baltoro Alpine - very similar products with minor variations; and also to test opinion on soft shell hoods interfering with hard shell hoods if the hard shell does have to go on if foul conditions. I've heard good things about the Astron hoody (though ME do an unhooded version too) so I'm looking forward to seeing how it performs.

As a hot runner on the hill, the additional breathability of Polartec Powershield over membrane soft shells using Windstopper or similar will be an advantage I hope!

This area really is a minefield though. Reading around, a lot of soft shells are not really designed for the British market IMO - rather the Alps. What we need, again IMO, is something that will hold out rain and wind but not at the expense of breathability so you don't boil in the bag!

Peter Evans 4 wrote (see)

What we need, again IMO, is something that will hold out rain and wind but not at the expense of breathability so you don't boil in the bag!

I think the only conclusions we can make out of all these recent soft shell threads is the term is not defined, different people prefer different clothing systems and no system is perfect.

Some people have argued that only the lined microfibre tops are able to be called softshell (Andy Kirkpatrick's piece seems to say this). Others have discussed how separating the insulation from the microfibre into two separate tops offers more flexibility and is a better clothing system. I have argued (unsuccessfully probably) the microfibe top (windshirt) is not the best solution but a non-membrane softshell that is well designed and well fitting is more useful as one comfortable, stretchy layer does the work of the windshirt and the insulation in one layer that works like a simple fleece layer in breathability yet acts like a windshirt in resisting the wind.

The only conclusion that matters IMHO is the system you work out for yourself. It is irrelevant what people like R_Mac, The captain or myself feel is the best system except as ideas for you to try. Unfortunately it is unlikely one purchase will get your to the system that works for you. My thoughts as someone who has tried the fleece with windshirt and the non-membrane softshell options is to give the non-membrane softshell a go. If it is not to your liking then later you can try a simple montane windshirt that canbe bought for £30 later. You probably have the fleeces to wear under it. Alternatively try the £30 windshirt then if that doesn't work for you then resort to the non-membrane softshell.

Its a fun game buying outdoor gear. I personally think it takes a few iterations before you arrive at the system that works for you. One more iteration for me is a synthetic insulation top to overlayer when stopped in winter or cold weather. Then for me I should have a flexible system. I must admit I have so many different items of outdoor clothing and it has been rare for me to completely wear out something other than socks and a pair fo berghaus deluge overtrousers (fabric coating has worn out on the inside so that it no longer works as a waterproof).

I agree with that TTG, Softshell is fairly loosely defined as you point out which is why I suggested that the OP decided what he wanted from a softshell. Obviously in trying to be all things to all men softshell garments require some compromises to be made (like anything else) In the end he choose something similar to what I choose, I actually looked at the ME site yesterday as I use ME softshell trousers and the Astron Hoodie along with the Pulsar and Shield were the ones that would have interested me, the emphasis on 'shell' rather than 'soft' if you like.

Just to be clear, I wouldn't try to argue that someone who wears softshell is wrong, really I was only pointing out my views to someone who hadn't already found what they were looking for.

It mightn't have looked that way of course 

Experiements, as suggested by TTG, can be expensive - and while it is true that we are all individuals and must decide what works best for us in that context, forums like these can help to guide choices. My choice in the end of the ME Astron and microfleece thrown in will help with layering. ie, the soft shell can be worn over a base layer until things turn really nasty, which they often do on mountains! LOL. Then there's the option of putting a hardshell on over the soft shell (breathability goes zonking down) or taking the soft shell off, bunging on a fleece midlayer and putting the hardshell on over that. Whether you can be bovvered is another matter and I'm sure other posters will be leaping to disagree.

Truth is, the marketeers are all out to encourage us to buy more gear, and as I read somewhere, soft shell is a marketing man's wet dream, as I and all those who have contributed to this and similar threads have proved.

Maybe we should all get out there and do it more and spend less time agonising about gear. I'm as guilty as anyone else so I'm not casting stones here.

Where did you get your Astron? Did it have the microfleece thrown in as a freebie?

ANother thing (perhaps not completely a bargain considering where it is being sold) but the astron with the nice blue or yellow zips (pink for a lady) is being sold for say £150 in Cotswolds. This is the 2009/10 version. There was an older version that is layed up with the same fabric pieces and the same cut and tailoring (if that is the phrase to use). This is £130 (or could be less but is £20 cheaper). It is easily spotted as the old one as it does not have the contrast zips that are of late the fashion. If you don't mind being labelled as cheap or out of the hill fashion then it is an option. The guy in the shop when asked said there is absolutely nothing different except the colour differences, nothing that will effect the performance.

Just thought I'd point that out. There must be other examples where you can see the same product in the same shop with one being sold cheaper because it has the old colours but with the same performance as the newer one. It just goes to show that for these larger outdoor companies to go through the cosmetic design and all the costs involved with changing their sourced materials there must be enough suckers out there to make it worth their while. I for one would be quite happy to buy last year's colours. If I am not "on trend" in my normal clothes why would I bother for stuff to be used in the hills and shops of places like Ambleside.

Of course I want an Astron but didn't buy last years one and can't afford the contrasty zippered version. Fashion victom afterall! Guilty as charged!

I think the only difference in the 2008 to 2009 Astron Hoody is with the black colour.  Pretty sure the blue is exactly the same.  The black now has gold/yellow contrast zips, whereas last year's had red.

The price hike is astronomical:  £120rrp to £150.  I notice a lot of this season's Haglofs gear has gone up by 15-20% too.  Recession, what recession...

The markup on outdoor gear folks, if you hadn't guessed, is astronomical - it's called business. But keep searching for those bargains - wait and pick your moment. It's all simple economics - supply and demand. You want it more - Arcteryx, Haglofs - that demand is reflected in the price. Unless you're a slave to fashion and the latest thing though, there are lots of things that work which don't cost as much.

Soft shell - the marketing man's wet dream - stacks of it out there for a reason. Doesn't mean some of it isn't good quality of course, but it's all about getting those tills a clangin'! Doesn't stop us agonising about what we want and discussing features though does it?

hi peter,

i live in the blue mountains, australia, and have the ME astron hoody. 

i really like the hoody, despite some perceived flaws, i.e., an excess of material around the armpit region and the stretch panelling.  so it's no as fitting as brands, i.e., haglofs, which is a shame.  the outer is very durable and it does keep the wind out, unless the stretch panelling is windward facing.  it's also quite water resistant.

on a side note, wish the the fleece lining was actually a wicking lining.

What is SS for, how good is it etc.?  I think the following from my OM review of my Ready Mix jacket summarises my thoughts fairly well:

"You can do without it more than you can do without a proper waterproof, or a very light windshell, but in its right place it is a very nice bit of kit. But definitely a luxury"

I use the jacket a lot (and also a Montane krypton shelled micropile) and am very glad I have it, but I don't need it.

Pete.