Gear

Get your point R_Mac.

The ME Astron Jacket looks closer to that. No idea what the insulation value of it would be compared to 100 and 200 weight fleece though.

I noticed the Astron while checking out what ME had to offer, I like the look of it and it doesn't have a hood but unfortunately it's a 3 layer soft shell laminate so I suspect it won't breath as well as even the most wind resistant fleece and again I suspect won't offer much in the way of insulation. 

Reading up on Power Shield on the Polartec site they claim that the membrane enhances breathability which TBH I find hard to believe, I don't see how any membrane sandwiched between 2 layers of fabric can improve breathability over the same 2 fabrics without the membrane.

http://www.polartec.com/#/shelter/polartec-power-shield/

Powershield is less breathable than the likes of Ultrafleece, but it's considerably more windproof, water resistant and it's still reasonably breathable thanks to the perforations, plus it's stretchy so it can be cut closer for better termal efficiency and less catching the waether.  Our ski touring salopettes are made from it and it's damn good stuff IMHO, though I'd put it a level of protection up from U-fleece (both a good and bad thing, according to how much you need).  The missus has replaced her Montane K-2000 (aka Karisma aka Ultrafleece) Alpine fleece jacket with an ME Moonlight jacketin Powershield, and she seems to like it a lot.

Pete.

Well of course it doesn't

To be fair though if you read it they're claiming more breathable than fleece + waterproof combo. Which would be nonsense if powershield was a 'straight up' laminate like windstopper. It isn't really though - its (a little) air permeable etc so immediately a fair bit more breathable. 

Powershield, being a lot more windproof, is still a lot less breathable than windpro/karisma etc of course

If straying from karisma and friends then I guess a couple of the vapour rise things may (VR Lite or stretch top air both hoodless) may be worth a look. One layer of air permeable outer with some insulation underneath (stitched connection.). Probably still a bit more windproof than Karisma mind.

If I'm not really sold on the idea of soft shell for upper body although I do think it's very good for trousers as legs are a bit more tolerant of changes in temperature, in fact I generally use ME softshell trousers and find them comfortable, warm, windproof and resistant to pretty sustained rain as long as it doesn't reach cloudburst level.

Peter your missus is probably best placed to advise as she has experience of both Ultrafleece type fabric and Powershield. Does she find the Powershield to provide enough insulation over the same baselayer as the 'Ultrafleece' and while I assume it won't be as breathable is it breathable enough? (vague question I know, sorry) Perhaps i shouldn't rule out Power Shield just yet.

Martin, point taken, Windpro sounds like an option but I'll need to back over the thread again.

I'm starting to get confused about who does what and why

There's a whole continium out there....

Everything mentioned here is a lot more breathable than any waterproof, so its more a matter of how you want to manage your heat in terms of wind resistance and potential other layers.

Powershield is I suspect windproof enough that carrying a windshirt as well would be a little pointless - you've got your shell in reserve for gales after all. May still be comfortable enough mind.

(The astron does also have big totally air permeable power stretch side  panels.).

The VR stuff is relatively similar I suppose, with just a bit less wind resistance(for good or bad). Hard to be more specific without figures which most people don't seem to publish

We've not even mentioned single layer softshells like Dryskin yet. Say that dyno which has appeared on Montanes website. That only one layer but still 149g/m2 of 'stuff' will give a little warmth, although I guess less than you're probably after.

I'm not sure how wind resistant some of the power stretch with hardface fleeces might be? I think they may claim tend to claim some.

One thing I'd guess you will be getting here is a bit more shower resistance than ultrafleece.

R_Mac wrote (see)

Not really what I'm looking for Jim, I just want a non laminate fleece jacket without a hood, full length zip, more windproof than normal Polarfleece and somewhere between 100 and 200 weight fleece in insulation value.

I wouldn't rule out what Jim said.

If you can get past the left-field looks and function, the Paramo Parameta S stuff does exactly what you want. I have the Mountain Vent Pull-On which I mainly wear as a winter base layer under a Paramo jacket. But it's got a great mix of wind resistance, insulation and wicking. It also is supposed to be pretty water resistant combined with a windshirt (I haven't tried this myself). I will be trying it in a wider range of conditions as we move into spring.

Richard, Roos tends to use her Powershield jacket as a general purpose jacket around town/campsite rather than up hills.  This sort of weather you'll more likley find her in a Paramo Velez if we're wandering over a hill.

I agree with your opinion that PS makes more sense for legs than anything else, but it would be viable as a general jacket.  One thing to note is that all Powershield is not created equal, as the inner fleece layer changes and can be more or less warm, so you can select a more or less warm one with the same degree of windproofing. It's a lot more windproof than Karisma and wouldn't need a windshell.  It keeps out dreich very well, but when it does soak through it'll take much longer to dry than Karisma (not as bad as a sandwich fleece though).

the Paramo Parameta S stuff does exactly what you want

Up to a point.  They're my general purpose wear of choice and worn over a thin base provide a fair degree of windprrofing, but it's not really at the same level as Karisma.  Does partner well with a wind shell though, as Ben suggests.  It's quite jandy that you can make them warmer/cooler by turning them around, though if anyone's worked out how to turn them inside out while still wearing them I'd like to know how!

Pete.

I switched from a much-loved Ultrafleece jacket (now well over 20 years old) to a Powershield jacket simply because the pockets in the UF jacket are inaccessible when wearing a pack with a hipbelt.

The Powershield jacket has accessible pockets, plus an extra small pocket high up which is perfect for a camera, but apart from that I pine for my Ultrafleece every time I wear the new jacket! To me the UF is warmer feeling, has a better mix of windproof/breathable (I find the Powershield jacket gets a bit too clammy sometimes), and the UF jacket is more sturdily made. I still wear it casually and still love it to bits.

In my view, a lot of outdoor gear changes, especially clothing, are more down to fashion and manufacturers wanting to be more "clever" than about genuine functionality enhancement and this is a prime example.

R_Mac - can I just suggest something noone has mentioned and that is Montane Dynamo. Now I know you said no pertex but this is pertex equilibrium with a gind of texturised almost micropile inner face. It is quite thin so not a very warm layer but I have used mine for quite a few years in all season. I used to wear more base layers underneath it in winter less in other seasons or when warmer.

It is described as good for fast moving activities but I use it as my spring to autumn fleece now and only switch to a rab VR top when it gets cold. I'd just call it a good if thin fleece that is wind resistant yet very adaptable. I am onto my second one, the first one is still being used as my jacket to work and in between sites and TBH my genereal jacket I wear all the time when out and about and needing a jacket. The second one is my 3 season top. It vents well due to long zip, sleeves can easily roll up and the velcro tabs will hold it and the side pocket (reachable when wearing waist belt) has mesh inside them which is a very good venting option if you hands aren't in them.

I might be banging on a bit about them but the Montane Dynamo is a very much underrated jacket IMHO. I got mine for £32.50 from Outdoor Warehouse couple of years ago and at that price is a no-brainer.

I know you seem to be mainly interested in breathability, well the Dynamo IMHO is as breathable or more so than any micro fleece. It is my opinion that the dynamo actively pumps moisture away from the inner face to the outer. My first one was not in pertex equilibrium but a lesser performing fabric and not long after getting it I wore it in 2 hours of rain without feeling uncomfortable (except for my head that got very wet). It did get wet through but since it was a mild spring day I didn't get cold and once the rain stopped my skin was dry in next to no time.

If you were to wear it like a micro fleece you could put it under any waterproof and it will breath better than the waterproof. That is any waterproof. I reckon it is better than the pump liner in Paramo and I have worn Paramo for 15 plus years.

BTW I have no connection with Montane or any Montane main dealer so the only bias is caused by the performance of this jacket and by my own experiences wearing it.

Extreme have a web site here. Not done any business with them so I don't know current status.  His K2 fleece is, AFAICT, Karisma.U-fleece.

Another option is get the Karisma you want and either a DIY or local custom job to your exact requirements.

Pete.

So underrated they've canned it this summer

It seems to have got replaced with a worthy non stretch relative mind. Seemingly slightly heavier fabric, and a decent looking (roll away) hood.

If you do get intrigued in non membrane soft shells there various previews have indicated plenty coming this summer - RAB doing a minimalist smock in equilibrium, Haglofs doing a flexable pullover, that Montane one and some lightweight Pattaguicci guide jacket too I think.

PHD also seem do a simple, non hooded, two pocketed jacket in Taiga fleece - the description of that seems to read like a Karisma style fleece.

Aaaaarrgh! What have they done to the Dynamo jacket? They've turned it into a hooded pile of...

I have just come to the conclusion that Montane as a brand has gone downhill. The original Dynamo jacket was nearly perfect. They then came back with the new Dynamo with a change to the improved fabric that was Pertex Equilibruim and  added a few features like an adjustable cuff and tinkered a little with the zips. Still basically the same jacket allbeit with a slightly changed fit, I lived with that as the changes were for the good or at least the fit wasn't too much of a change (althought the fitrst fit was perfect for me). Now they have changed it again. It has those stretchy bits on the inside of the sleeve like Haglofs have done on their lightweight fleece shirt. I don't think these are any good for an outer fleece softshell thingy. They have lost the velcro tabs which allows you to pull them up to cool down and tighten them so they stay up or stay down trapping the hot air in. That means a loss in functionality.

What about the hood? I mean why do they seem to think all softshells need a hood? That one was a perfect one to go without a hood as it was aimed more at the fast and light movers, like runners or bikers or fast walkers. I question whether you are really going to need a hood if you're wearing a bike helmet. IS it just the latest trend to have hoods on everything?

Has anyone else got an example of designers copying other brands or changing a good design just to fit in with a latest "must have" feature?

Time to go wrote (see)

Has anyone else got an example of designers copying other brands or changing a good design just to fit in with a latest "must have" feature?

Mountain Equipment stopping Ultrafleece?

I e-mailed Extreme to request a brochure and got a reply from Keith saying he'd sent one out, just had another from him inviting me to phone with any questions.

Peter, I had a quick look at the K2 garments and they seem to be very close to what I want.

Chris, if the Astron was made from Ultrafleece it'd be perfect

Jim, when you're trying to sell a £100 + soft shell you can't have a wind resistant fleece in the range as competition

TTG, unfortunately my experience with Peretex Equlibrium (Montane Jetstream) is that it isn't breathable enough. Worn over a basic fleece but under a Marmot Essence waterproof the Jetstream was wet inside and the outside of my fleece was wet enough that when I brushed my hand down it my hand wasn't jsut damp it was actually wet, the inside of the fleece was dry though which suggests that the moisture was wicked away by the fleece until it reached the windshirt.

Martin, will look at the PHD Tiaga now

Checking online the jetstream seems to be quantum not equilibrium? A very different fabric - windproof for one thing Easy to tell visually - equilibrium has a much less shiny finish. Thicker too.

Well Montane did make the hood roll away. If bent on hoodless then that Haglof's pullover could I suspect make a very good substitute.

Currently top of my personal hate list is whoever at Montrail decided to stop making streaks....

Jim, when you're trying to sell a £100 + soft shell you can't have a wind resistant fleece in the range as competition

IIRC, ME stopped doing U-fleece as at was not selling so well any more.  Despite the U-fleece Mountain Jacket being a firm critical favourite I understand sales were falling, I think mainly with the increasing (and IMHO misguided!) popularity of (more expensive) membrane windrpoof fleeces.

When U-Fleece jackets went they were replaced by the various Microtherm garments, but they didn't sell too well either and were stopped after a while.  PYB pointed out to them they were fab and that seems in large part to be why it's back in a more developed form, but most of this turnover has been according to what actually does sell, not what the builders wished would sell.

For a fleece jacket I'd agree that U-fleece/Karisma takes a lot of beating, letting just enough wind through for active cooling while being usefully warm on its own.  When I'm climbing it's still my #1 choice, and I suspect I'd get an Extreme one is I manage to wear out my Mountain Jacket (it's got a few patches on it but is still going strong!).

Pete.

R_Mac - Equilibrium is not quantum as Martin said, it is probably closer to a thin fleece in the format Dynamo jackets were sold in. It is kind of a denier gradient, texturised fabric. I think that means it has an open slightly fluffy side on the inside and smooth on the outside so the sweat is actively moved to the outer face. On my jackets it is kind of a smooth, sleek and a little bit shiny face on the outside which does shed water to some degree. On the inside it was almost like a gridstop type of face, although not in a grid pattern, but has an almost brush-like inner face.

IME I have had a wet base layer on the inside due to working hard, a dry base layer on the outside against the Dynamo and a dry inner face to the dynamo even when the outer is damp due to drizzle! To my mind that is telling me that the highly wickable synthetic base layer is being overwhelmed by sweat but the pertex equilibrium fabric is coping with it. I have never worn it against the skin as it has a full zip and I have had bad experiences through absentmindedness of zippers against the skin. Trust me I don't come with a snag guard, but I'd reckon the fabric would be good directly against the skin.