Ship

Just to add fuel to the fire so to speak.

Paramo is one third lighter this year in comparison with last year.

It's Paramo for me. I use the Cascada trousers from September thro to April. I run hot but never botherd me, like the idea of the full lenght zips down the side. Hane this year purchased a Velez smock which as a little hot thro the summer but am looking foreward to using it for the rest of the year. Have a pair of the gaters as well they breath fantastic.

shipperton:-

I use a fuera windshirt in all conditions and it keeps me drier than any other jacket i've used, especiallly in summer where the breathability helps no end.

I have a fair amount of the Paramo gear, two jackets, 5 shirts, I pair of trousers, 2 fleeces (Taiga & Andorra) so you could say I'm something of a fan, but I do run hot when walking.

That said over the last New Year I was up on the Isle of Skye and I was walking with a group at a moderate pace. With an Alta jacket and one of their shirts on I was warm and very comfy even when we stopped, and that was at temperatures around about 0 degrees. When I did a short distance at my normal pace I could feel the sweat building up and the subsequent chill as I cooled down.

Even when I have got hot and sweaty the Paramo gear has usually kept me comfy and usually dries out fairly quickly. Once I wore a Helly Hansen jacket on top of Paramo shirt. In a light rain the jacket leaked, my shirt ended up wet if not quite soaked but I didn't even notice because the shirt still kept me warm!

For all these reasons I remain a fan even though I accept I cannot use the gear all year round. And yes I have and do wear the jackets with nothing on underneath to help offset my own bodyheat.

So these new jackets that are 1/3rd lighter... are they just as waterproof? Some just claim to be wind proof but become waterproof if you have a Paramo fleece underneath. How well does that work in practice? (It sounds like everything in your pockets would get wet but maybe it would get no further than your fleece due to body heat, presumably...)

the analogy bit compares the garment to animal fur - animals get wet on the outside but not on the inside (skin side) so the term "waterproof" doesn't really apply. the point is that you don't get wet on the inside. that is why the seams aren't taped and you can repair the outer without loss of performance. and it really does work and the breathability makes any other type of laminate waterproof seem like plastic bags. and it's quiet - you can hear the sounds of the countryside.
the fleece...well...isn't - it's just called that. it's is a fuzzy fleece-like outer with a pump liner . it is surprisingly warm and quite shower resistant. adding a water repellent top converts it to full "system". the fuego jacket is a good "sturdy" windproof and is designed to go over the fleece. you have direct access to the fleece pockets. this does make the hip pockets on the jacket useless as they are open and things fall out of them. it's also rather expensive for a "waterproof" but the combination does work. you can get both in green - well at least used to be able to. the trousers are also excellent windproof and resist rain reasonably well although condensation round the knee area is annoying (I've only worn these as trousers, very comfy too, so there wasn't another layer between my skin and the fabric so perhaps I'm being a bit harsh.)

I cant see a "Fuego" jacket on www.paramo.co.uk
Are you confusing it with a ladies Craghoppers jacket?
Or possibly the "Fuera" jacket...
http://www.paramo.co.uk/UK/acatalog/Windproofing-15.html
Or is this a model they've stopped making...? (Or maybe I'm just blind!)

I find it curious that Paramo talk about certain jackets under the heading of "Windproofing" jackets (e.g. the Fuera) whereas under "Warmth, windproofing and WATERPROOFING" various other jackets are listed. Maybe as you imply NONE of them are actually waterproof and it's just a matter of degree... Having said that, there is a whole section under the Guarantee
http://www.paramo.co.uk/UK/guarantee.html
that talks about the tests done at the Rain Room at Leeds University Textile Department ... mind you, to be fair, it doesnt seem to say what the results were ie whether any water actually got through!!

But to cut to the chase, are you Paramo fans *really* saying that sweat aside, one will stay completely dry hanging around in driving rain on the top of a Cuillin on the Isle of Skye... ALL DAY LONG?! And if so, does this apply to all their jackets - even the 1/3rd lighter ones... and even the "windproof" Fuera jackets? Or just the 900+ gram ones...


Ship

P.S. Any more views on Cioch vs Paramo?!
Are Cioch just as good - they appear to make their own AND sell Paramo jackets...!

Ship - are you pacman in disguise?

The only Skye guide I know wears paramo (or Cioch - same material) - so I would imagine that the answer to you "hanging around in driving rain on the top of a Cuillin on the Isle of Skye... ALL DAY LONG?!" question is 'Yes'.

Chris Townsend (tgo gear tester) also wears Paramo by choice in Winter - and he should know.

There are also rather a lot of reviews in the OM ruser review section - the vast majority favourable.

sorry, fuera.

not a late 70's renault coupe

I'm a Paramo convert but I don't have a fanatical belief in the stuff. I use the Cascada trousers all year round but I find the Velez smock too warm for summer use. I've recently got myself a Paclite smock for use in hotter weather. For winter use, you can't beat the stuff. I've just got myself some Aspira salopettes which are sitting waiting for some nice winter weather.

a)Paramo seem to sell their stuff through independant retailers who will be more likely to have customers and stuff who understand the stuff. You tend to find these kind of retailers near the hills. In my experience, I've found retailers in Fort William, Stirling, Sheffield and Keswick. You tend to get more big chain store type outdoor places in London like F&T, Cotswolds, Ellis Brigham, etc who ain't gonna sell Paramo because most of their customers come in and say "I want a Berghaus Goretex". Yep, I agree with Nigel.

c) There has been quite a few changes and new additions recently.

d) I think Jon is like many people and runs so hot that use of Paramo is limited to real winter weather. Perhaps Jon could schedule some ice climbing this winter so he can test some Paramo stuff? I spoke to one guy who said he's switched to Paramo and getting fed up with all the condensation he was getting icing up inside his goretex jacket!

e) Aye, I'm not sure what these buy buttons are checkout things are for as they don't work. Seems like the web designer had a chance of mind halfway through.

I don't think there is any chance of Paramo going down the plughole. Nikwax is a huge business.

As regards letting water in, my Cascada and Velez smock got really damp after 6 hours of moderate rain and weighed a ton. I risned out the washing machine, washed and reproofed them in the proper Nikwax stuff. The biggest difference came after I spent a wee bit time giving them a nice warm iron. I then went on a horrendous 8 hours walk at 4000 feet with 60mph winds, -16c windchill, continuous torrential rain and they did "wet out" on the oustide but not a drop got in and they were mostly bone dry by the time I drove 2 hours home.

No, DavidG I am not pacman in disguise! I am just trying to get to the bottom of how waterproof these things really are in practise. I mean apparently in you kneel in a puddle or put your knee against a soaking bank of peat some water will go straight through... And yet now it seems the stuff is good for several hours of driving rain in the Cuillins.

(Why Cuillins? Because I'm heading up there in two weeks time. Why driving rain? Because as the locals say "the rain never leaves the island"!)

Geoffrey - If I got you right you were wearing a Cascada AND a Velez smock... er why? what both at the some time?! (Personally I've never really understood smocks because if you get hot you cant just unzip them - but I must be missing something).

The Berghaus Paclite jacket (at a mere 340g does sound interesting though - mainly for my cycling.
http://www.berghaus.com/the_gear/view_product.asp?product_id=1036#
Just a shame they dont seem to do a green once for my hill walking.

What's it like at shedding water?
It appears to be a membrane jacket - which is less good because in my experience the waterproofing of these soon wears through - especially under a rucksac.

Nonetheless, can one wash things like Paclite in proofing fluids to give effective shower resistance?!

My undersanding is that in light mist/fine rain some of these jackets can repel water for literally hours by simply having a hydrophobic outer layer. If fact rather shockingly I had an ulra-lightweight £15 nylon parker from UniQlo that kept a fine drizzle off for literally hours & hours - all day in fact!

However the trouble seems to start with HEAVY raindrops, the impact of which seems to go straight through any thin woven fabric by shear pressure of impact!

So I'm left wondering if the best solution wouldnt be to have a fine nylon jacket outer that simply took the impact out of the rain and then have a second one underneath that kept the rain out. Or for warmth a "highly water replellent Directional" Taiga fleece from Paramo...

Whoops better do some work!


Ship

Ship - Geoff said he had Cascada trousers not Cascada jacket. I am also a Paramo fan and use my Velez jacket all year round in Scotland although I am lucky as I don't run too hot. Can't see myself ever returning to Gore-tex as I love the comfort and practicality of this jacket and use it with a mountain pull-on top and a base layer and rarely need additional clothing even in the coldest weather. I regularly wash and reproof using the Nikwax stuff and it works a treat. The Velez is ideal for me as I wear for a whole load of things, not just walking and backpacking.

Sorry, I missed out a rather important word I was wearing Cascada TROUSERS! :-)

My new Paclite beads water perfectly as you'd expect from new Goretex. I'm expecting that it will eventually start to wet out as the DWR wears off and I'll have to reproof it as I do with the Paramo. MY understanding is that Goretex material is totally waterproof. A plastic bin bag is totally waterproof but just has pants breathability. So, it's not surprising a £15 jacket will be totally waterproof but you the challenge is for the garment to also be breathable. If you're just stnading around giving off very little condensation then a cheapie waterproof can do the job very well.

Geoff

Trousers yes my apologies I was reading too fast and starting from bottom of your text.

The is one surefire way to test the breathability of a fabric: Put it in your mouth and suck! And that's my real point: my £15 jacket breaths BEAUTIFULLY. Like I say where it becomes useless is in anything you might call RAIN rather than drizle. Heavy rain goes through it like a knife through butter! But it was intriguing how well it survived hours of drizle using pure water repellency.


"Triple Point Ceramic"

The review on this site of the "Lowe Alpine Alpine Flash" and "Triple Point Ceramic"
( http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/review/reviewproduct/mps/RGN/3/RCN/67/RPN/1431/v/1/sp/ )
makes quite interesting reading.

The outer layers of the material sound like they keep beading water MUCH better than Paramo (which requires fairly frequent special washing plus occassional re-proofing).


Ship

Polyamide vs PolyEster

By the way I've been in touch with Cioch (Neil Urquhart) and apparently although they use the same "Parameta" lining fabric as Paramo, the outer shell is *not* the same material. Cioch use "polyester microfibre" (from FOV of Sweden) whereas Paramo use "nylon" (ie Polyamide).

When I enquired about what the difference between the two was in practice, here's what he (ie Cioch) said: "The tear strengths are similar, when washed they behave in the same way, and they both have a soft drape".

It seems that there is in real ADVANTAGE to using PolyEster it's just that being a small company no one will supply them with the appropriate PolyAmide. Sounds suspicious to me. I'll bet Paramo use polyamide in preference for some good reason!

I just wish someone would invent a material that doesn wet-out eventually... Wetting out adds weight even if it doesnt necessarily lead to liquie water getting through...!

The whole waterproof / not waterproof thing is based on hydrostatic head, which measures how much water pressure needs to be exerted before a fabric leaks. In tests, Paramo has a hydrostatic head which is much lower than conventional waterproof fabrics and technically not considered 'waterproof' according to EU standards.

That's not the full story though, since in effect Paramo keeps you dry most of the time, which is what matters. The exceptions are if you kneel on wet ground or lean against a wet rock face when you exert enough pressure to force water through the fabric.

Personally I think Parmo's great for winter use, but much too warm for me in anything short of freezing temperatures. I will endeavour to get some of the latest, lighter stuff on the site this winter though.

I got a strong sell from a Lake District store, basically saying Paramo were the best, used by MRT for personal use when they were already supplied by Berghaus for official call-outs, superior technology etc etc. I almost kicked myself for just buying a nice goretex jacket. Then I realised what the downside is: they are not just shells. They also have a warm lining so they probably are great for cold conditions, but unsuitable for anything else. So if you're paying about £200/250 for a jacket, you want it to be more versatile ie. suitable for a wide range of conditions, using layering when necessary.

I suspect this is why they are not popular.

Ah-ha. Hydrostatic head sounds like the nub of the issue. So here's the question: What "hydrostatic head" can a large droplet of water generate in a wind of say 60, okay 80 MHP to be safe, miles per hour... AT THE MOMENT OF IMPACT!?

And can anyone tell me what hydrostatic pressure Paramo (or Cioch) are good for?

It's not that straightforward otherwise all windproofs would be as water resistant as a Paramo analogy jacket, it's the combination of the liner and the outer that does it. Sorry :-)

Jon, well hang on it depends what you mean by "water resistant". The best thing (IMHO) about Paramo is that it's incredibly breathable. And the second best thing is that it's incredibly durable (ie restant to puncturing by prickles, pins etc).

Now then, let's assume the outer shell on its own is frankly NOT that waterproof. i.e. Given time and driving rain it gets saturated and/or micro droplets work their way through the fabric... by what kind of magic does the liner (which sounds like a wicking varient on blotting paper, which can only absorb a small amount of water at a time into its tubules) FORCE the water to go no further?

Are we to assume that it's the thermal gradient which protects us (not much use then when one starts to get hypothermia! - and not much use on the extremities like cuffs & hoods...)

Or maybe this Parameta stuff is good at physically holding the (wet) shell away from the skin or base layer underneath. Maybe it doesnt in fact ACTUALLY wick at all, but creates an air-gap for vapour to travel though.

Now it's just possible I suppose that Nikwax have invented a fibre that will allow water to travel ONLY IN ONE DIRECTION (i.e. from inside to out), but from my understanding of molecular physics this seems highly unlikely.

What seems more likely is that the "directional" bit is that the fabric is woven such that you have in effect little hose-pipes laid on their sides ALONG the weave of the cloth, but none ACROSS the weave. This would help distribute local sweating etc from wetter to drier areas...

However to call this a "pump" wouldnt really stack up!

Sorry I'drivelling on now, but is it too much to ask to genuinely understand the basic theory behind a jacket before I spend well over £150 on something?