Paramo/Nickwax is the choice of Mountain rescue teams. various mountain guides and an outdoor clothing manufacturer in Skye, who all reckon it is superior to Goretex in the generally damp UK climate (Goretex works best in cold/dry conditions such as the Alps, where there is a sufficiently large humitidy gradient to drive body moisture through the membrane).
However, Paramo is perhaps not advised unless you run cold in the warmer months and/or cannot afford a seperate summer waterproof.
Perhaps an eVent fabric jacket is worth considering. The breathability is supposedly better than Goretex, and Rab and Montane do highly regarded jackets. Not any cheaper than Paramo though.
Erm, I'm not sure that it's absolutely necessary to understand the way Paramo works to be able to wear it. I'm sketchy on the workings of digital TV, for example, but it doesn't worry me unduly as long as it does what it says on the box.
If you want to understand how it works then check out www.paramo.co.uk and see if it makes more sense of it. They ought to understand how their own clothing system functions after all.
Fwiw, I find pile/Pertex clothing manages excess body moisture much more effectively than Paramo, which is just as well really since it's so flippin warm. in the first place.
According to the Paramo web site:
"Both Soft Shell and conventional waterproof breathable fabrics can only cope with 20% of the sweat you produce when working hard. For real comfort you need Páramo's Directionality to pump away the other 80%."
Personally I reckon if you're going to make claims with hard figures like that, it's a good idea to back them up with some scientific evidence.
Although I'm a Paramo fan I do find their stuff too warm for anything other than the colder winter conditions.
I've also found Pertex does an astonishing job in taking sweat from the body and spreading it across the material to aid dispersal and cooling by evaporation..... and that can be a problem in cold winds.
I recently purchased an eVent jacket and although I've not worn it enough to give a final verdict early impresssions are that its much more breathable and comfortable than Goretex. Sorry I can't comapre it with Goretex Paclite as I've not worn it.
Jon, Correct you dont HAVE to understand anything in this world. But a) it's fun... and b) having been disappointed by a long series of jackets that either russle like hell or have pathetic durability, only lasting a few months if you're lucky... Forgive me for taking a technical interest in where I blow my next £200.
Jeffry, What the heck is "Pertex" ?(so much to learn - groan) Okay I just went to www.pertex.com and discovered there's Pertex Equilibrium; pertex endurance, pertex classic, pertex microlight, pertex quantum and even Pertex Blue (okay that just for parachutes!).
Ah-ha. Apparently it uses a "Dernier Gradient" (a capillary action phenomenon whereby liquid water is sucked towards areas of higher density of surface area - ie the more tightly woven outer face of finer diameter filaments). Made out of nylon66. And, like Paramo, has no membrane.
It tries to keep the wet outer off your skin by having just a few, larger dimeter fibres that keep the outer layer at a distance...
There is some chat about using fluorocarbon treatments help bead the water off.
So far this all sounds rather similar to what I suspect Paramo of being like...
Except that I think I tried something that was (or seemed similar to??) pertex years ago and found a). that heavy rain went straight through it. And b). the coating only lasted a few hours...
Okay I give up. What's Pertex like in practice?
Jon, when you say pile/Pertex do you mean and ordinary fleece or a treated one that beads the water off (like Paramo's Taiga ones do...). i.e. Is there any advantage in having an untreated fleece - does being untreaded help it wick away the water?
I have an old Paramo fleece and it does indeed bead water quite well. But a) it's really quite heavy and overly warm to wear underneath anything in the summer...!
Pertex is an outer fabric used by such companies as Buffalo and Montane. Its put on the outside of a fibre pile layer to keep the wind out and ensure that the sweat wicked away by the fibre pile is emitted out into the atmosphere. Its very breathable it terms of transmitting water vapour outward into the air, absorbs water drops like a sponge and gets soaking wet very quickly.
I like to think that used properly this combination of fibre pile and Pertex can end up acting like a wetsuit. Inside even if it does get wet you have an insulating layer of warm/hot water vapour which protects you from the colder stuff outside. Of course this view may be simplistic and crap. I have found a Montane jacket using this combination to be about as breathable as Paramo gear but its not waterproof and I believe that it relies on its wetsuit like properties to keep you warm once it gets wet.
So far I've yet to risk using it is heavy and prolonged rain but I believe that Jon said it doesn't keep you dry but should still keep you warm. I've heard of a canoeist who fell into the Rhine and survived the immersion in the cold waters for about 2 hours thanks to the wetsuit like properties of his fibrepile/pertex clothing.
I think Buffalo/Montane gear is an acquired taste, but that said their stuff is very good in cold dry conditions. Oh yes I should say that the fibrepile/pertex combination should be worn next to the skin for maximum effectiveness.
Cannot say I am a fan of Paramo, don't see much of it about throughout the highlands either, except some birdwatchers that I know.
Use pertex/fleece and love it, nothing has provided as much protection from cold weather in my experience. Have been soake through and still warm, but prefer to through a paclite or full mountaineering waterproof over it as that takes the sting out of the gusting weather as well.
There is meant to be a new endurance-pertex-quantum or such that is more waterproof than before, not that it claimed to be anyway.
Standard fleece wicks perfectly fine, I run hotter than most other mountain goers that I know so consider that a fair statement.
Having more layers is far better that the paramo system in my mind as you can vary it and adapt more to the weather as it is changing.
At the end of the day the system of clothes should leave you inside dry, so if its a skimpy wicking top that takes the perspiration out to th the fleece then fine, I rarely werar more then 2 layers on top (except winter or climbing) anyway and a paclite over baselayer works fine.
Have tried several different claimants to being waterproof, but have come back to gore-tex as it's the only thing that breaths enough to have a chance.
Pertex Quantum's aimed squarely at sleeping bag / down clothing, but Montane use something called Pertex Microlight with Shield Technology, which is an ultralightweight clothing Pertex fabric with a decent water repellant treatment.
Shiperton, I was kind of joking about understanding Paramo. One of the joys of the brand has always been that despite exhaustive explanations, I've never really understood how it works, they've used lots of weird analogies with animal fur in the past, which merely sounds a bit mad and now it's all about transporting liquid around, which makes it sound like Didier Deschamps according to Cantona.
I've half given up trying to understand it, I just accept that in the right conditions it works well for some people. Curiously the brand does seem to arouse a semi-religious fervour in some adherents, but that's part of its charm.
If durability matters, you run cold and the sometimes rather conservative cut works for you then it's a decent choice. I use a Paramo Velez Smock for winter moutain biking when things get really cold and it works well.
I tend to agree with Richard. My most used garment is a pertex windshirt, either worn over a base layer or base layer + 100 weight fleece. I do run warm, however, and only really need a shell if it v. cold and/or windy or if it really starts tipping down.
I am interested in getting a Paramo jacket for Scottish winter use, however. The extra warmth means that I could probably save weight by leaving an extra fleece and down jacket at home. I already carry an insulated rab smock for 'just in case' purposes in summer anyway, and the base + fleece + smock + paramo combination would probably be warm enough in an emergency (any thoughts anyone?)
Quite an expensive option, though. Santa Claus will have to be good to me this year.
For pure Scottish winter use, check out one of the pile / Pertex combos from the likes of Buffalo or Montane. They're very warm and work very well in that wet, cold, typically Scottish environment.
David it depends on how warm you run but as a rough guideline your base + fleece + smock + paramo will have probably have you boiling.
I've been on Skye with an ambient temperature of around zero with just a Paramo mountain shirt (equivalent to between a 100 - 200 weight fleece) and an Alta jacket and been very comfortable.
My wife on the other hand had a base layer two Paramo shirts and a Paramo fleece on and only had to put on a shell jacket when we stepped out into the wind. How hot you run is a VERY subjective matter.
I'd suggest though that you should ditch either the fleece or the smock from your combination to be more comfortable or the base layer AND the smock. The paramo stuff really is quite warm as long as you are active. Its not so good if you are standing around. If you let the proofing treatment wear out, the jacket can get quite heavy in a lot of rain.
When thinking Paramo view the old layering system with a touch of cynicism. Paramo and layering don't work that well together. Just consider hot warm you run and how active you are going to be. The newer lighter Paramo gear is supposed to be less warm but I can't vouch for that as I don't have any of it.
One experienced guide I've spoken to said that with membrane fabrics you are looking at replacing your jacket every 3 years if it sees quite a lot of use. And he begrudges paying out £300 every 3 years.
Paramo gear if properly looked after should be good for say at least twice that and the manufacturers will repair it under guarantee restoring water repellency and appearance.
The base + fleece + smock + paramo would be for winter emergencies only (i.e. an emergency bivvy in sub-zero temps) I currently carry the lighweight smock in summer , while in winter a second fleece and a full duvet jacket take up space at the bottom of my sack unused for just such an emergency.
In terms of the Paramo, I would anticipate wearing it over just a base (or even next to the skin) in winter, with only a smock and fleece as emergency backup. Hence the weight saving.
However the pile/pertex combo is also an option (although I would still have to carry a Goretex shell, and perhaps also the down jacket), while the Rab vapour rise smock is a possibility.
My limited understanding is that you have to keep washing it in the nikwax stuff or equivalent, seems like a lot of money down the plug hole on that line, but could be wrong.
On the pertex issue i was thinking of endurance version, oops!!
Richard you do have to wash it but not that often. Paramo recommend washing it about once every 3-4 months if it gets a fair amount of usage and re-proofed about once a year. Total cost probably runs at about a tenner a year on chemicals.
Sure if it gets hammered then you wash it more often but the actual re-proofing treatment probably doesn't need to be done more than twice a year. Heavy usage might see the cost in chemicals doubled, but given the warmth problem who's going to use paramo gear all year round anyway?
> The is one surefire way to test the breathability of a fabric: Put it in your mouth and suck!
No. That's not what is meant by breathability. That's wind resistance.
Breathability is not the passage of air, it's the passage of water wapour, usually measured in kg/m2/day (high is good), or as an Ret figure (resistance to evaporation, low is good).
So, for instance, a PU coating may be almost entirely impermeable to air, but will still be able to breathe, as it allows water vapour to pass from one side to the other. ePTFE membranes work by the presence of billions of pores which allow water vapour molecules to pass.
The Paramo system is called 'Analogy' because it is a mimic of the fur of some animals. They have two types of fur fibres; outer guard hairs and inner thermal hairs.
The guard hairs absorb the impact of incoming water droplets, and prevent them penetrating into to thermal fur. In addition, the fur is coated with a water repellant (e.g. lanolin in sheep), which stops the fur wetting. As the animal moves, it generates warmth, and any water that penetrates some way into the thermal layer is driven out. Or the animal stops and shakes it out. Note that not all animals have this system; I understand that some dog breeds do, but others don't, and this determines how hardy they are in outdoor environments (I think Tony was talking about it on a thread the other day).
These features are destroyed by washing, which is why animals captured and cleaned during oil spills cannot be released immediately into the wild; they must be kept until their fur has recovered from the detergent cleaning.
The Paramo system uses a microfibre nlyon outer, treated with a water repellant coating, to mimic the guard hairs. The lining fabric mimics the thermal fur. It too is treated with water repellant, and body heat drives out any water that does make its way through the outer.
Buffalo clothing operates on a similar principle. As do the microfibre/microfleece soft-shell variants (e.g. Marmot Dri-clime).
My understanding of pile clothing, and personal experience too, is that it doesn't so much transport water outwards as fail to hold it so most just runs out of the bottom of the garment. Try wearing a Buffalo in wet conditions and you end up with a wet arse and crotch as water simply runs out of the bottom of the smock.
It's a shame that Paramo seems incapable of describing the workings of its own garment as clearly as you do CP, perhaps you could offer to rewrite their promotional literature?
It keeps me dry, it breaths, it means I start the day in one set of clothing without doing the legging dance and I can reproof it.
I don't care if anyone else likes it , becouse it works just fine for me .
Oh and one jacket I have had for 8 years and used to drystone wall, muck out, walk, bike, and generaly abuse went back becouse the refleting striping was going a bit of a funny colour.
Now I expected to get it back with a note saying stuff it ( and quite rightly so) But no it came back with new striping, all 14 holes repaired, cleaned, reproofed and iron, and all totaly free of charge. Now that is waht I call service :)
And before anyone asked it was a Valez smock , and I sent it off in a mates name to see what type of treatment I received, as having been in their catalogue in the past I didn't want to be treated any different to the normal punter.
Well done Guys at paramo, top gear, topr performance and top service
CaptainP, yes I stand corrected on the breathability, then! Though I still say that if I *can* suck bucket loads of air through a jacket (ie the material has low wind resistance) and if it also keeps the actual rainwater away then... (e.g. by beading off) then by default the chances are that the water vapour can follow my breath! So, almost inevitably... result!
However, yes, I can also see that with issues like "Dernier Gradient" cutting in, water transfer is (or can be) in fact more complex than that. i.e. A jacket could be hugely windresistant (ie I cant suck ANY air through it) AND it theortically could also simultaniously be extremely high on what you call guys "breathability". (Except that ironically one could never actually breath through it, as it were). Fair enough.
(Though my low wind resistant but waterproof jacket is very unlikey to be low of low breathability!)
I would be interested to know whether the "Dernier Gradient" is supposed to work on treated, (ie hydrophobic/water hating/beading) fibres, in the same manner as well as it clearly seems to on hydroPHYLic materials. It's hard to imaging intuitively how it would work if the water droplets are beading up everywhere...!
In the case of fur I can imagine that everything is nicely oily (and thus hydrophobic) and so long as there is a *temperature gradient* I can imagine this working very well. However I cant imagine oily hairs "wicking" very much... more like water evaporating near the heat and condensing near the cold. (Though note in passing that this will be expending heat - ie the evapouration absorbs a lot of heat and the condensing generates heat. But presumably this is worth it to the animal to maintain the airgap, being as [as we all know] static air is a great insulator...
BASIC THEORY FOR NEWBIE To recap then,(newbie question) am I right in fundamentally assuming that one generally wants: a) BASE LAYER. A damned good wicking material next to the skin. Something that waterfluid can pass ALONG rapidly, but it should also be fibres that dont actually *absorb* (and swell with) the water.
Thus, we should be wearing man-made fibres (not cotton) next to the skin. If it gets wet it dries quickly because it doesn hold much water. But the idea base layer will accept a film of water to travel along (or inside like minute garden hoses??) its fibres, persuably by surface tension - esp where two fibres are lying along side each other. And In practise this is normally er polyester, right?
So this base layer moves local damp patches around, and increase their surface area, and thus enables it to evapourate faster... right?
Now, am I right in thinking that these "base layer(s)" should NOT be treated with hydrophobic/water-beading fluids... yes?
And that is because it would stop/slow down the wicking process... right?
No in the case of most jackets (esp eg Paramos) the inside of the shell is there to *wick*, right?
Okay so how come we are encouraged to wash/treat the *entire* Paramo/Cioch/Gortex jackets in these fluids (e.g TX Direct etc)?! Wouldnt it make make more sense to just do the outside!? I mean how can it wick nicely if it's also beading... or is there something clever about the Parameta fibres that manage to ignore the hydrophobic/water-beading treatment?!
So what it comes down to is this: In things like Paramo, which is the *primary* means of shifting sweat away from the body:
i). Is it the evapouration/condensation down a thermal gradient? OR
ii). Is it actual wicking, travelling along the surfaces of the fibres themselves.
If it's "i)." then I'd be worried about whether it still works when I get hypothermia, and whether it'll keep water out of my pockets.
But if it's "ii)." then I'd be worried that I should only be painting the hydrophobic fluids onto the outside of the jacket rather than emersing the whole thing in the likes of TX Direct.
* * *
Gawd it does me head in trying to get my head around it!!
But just let me say that I am *NOT* a man for "religous fever" and I fear that a lot of the waterproof clothing market has become trapped in a whole array of various bandwagons... (And personally, yes, I do very much resent spending £300 quid ever 3 years on a new shell!)
P.S. Any views on a nylon shell (Paramo) vs polyester shell (Cioch)? (Both use the Parameta lining...)
PPS How well do the Buffalo clothes and the Marmot Dri-clime work vs Paramo? Do they keep their hydrophobic/water-beading films last any better? Do they work in sever downpours? And do they run any cooler than the evidently famously hot-running Paramos?!
I agree with Guy. It's basically what works for you. I use my Velez smock all year round, and while it is sometimes too hot, I find the flexibility means I don't need as much layering as a Gore-tex jacket so, for me, there is not as much changing layers.I don't run particularly hot or cold so maybe that's why I find it works so well all year round without having to alter what layers I wear too dramtically. The breathability, again, works for me and I can't say I am too bothered about all the technical in's and out's of how it works, I just put it on and wear it. It was actually the reviews on here that influenced my purchase rather than the Paramo blurb itself. As for washing and reproofing, it's no more trouble than doing a normal wash and it's not that expensive to do 3 or 4 times a year with Nikwax. Especially, if, like me you have just won washing and reproofing fluid two months in a row on the Paramo 500 comp!;)
