 Andy - What do you use it for? Hillwalking, climbing, cycling? In your opinion, is the Velez robust enough for rotten Scottish winter conditions?
I think the paramo smocks look easier to vent than the jackets, but I'm not going to pay £275 for the Asprira
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 trying to work out its actual dynamics just makes the head hurt so i don't bother.
view a jacket as two things - a fleece (about 100 weight) and a robust windproof shell. convert that to paclite and you have a fleece and a..well...paclite. if you're too hot in the latter then of course.....
what to wear with/under/over - well, what would you wear with the latter above?
it is heavy in comparison but it does have a "fleece" i.e. a medium mid-layer built in so how much would a fleece/paclite weigh/cost?
it is waterproof so no need to carry anything else and no changing in and out of clothes. takes yer choice.
it is extremely breathable (however you want to define this) - test....winter, it's raining and you're on the tube which, to prevent massive hypothermia on the passengers (sorry, customers) the heating is at full blast. i turn into a mobile sauna wearing goretex. i'm just warm/very warm in my paramo.
it gets washed/reproofed when it needs it just like anything else - just like goretex stuff. if you want a waterproof coat then don't complain about the ongoing cleaning costs - just like a suit for work - doesn't matter if it cost £50 or £500 it still costs £7.50 to get it cleaned.
cascada trousers - as for the top - wear these and no acrrying overtrousers - by the way - the cascada's replace trousers i.e. next to your skin, and very comfy they are too.
the mountain pull on type tops have a fabulous fabric which is almost magical. drop some water on the furry side, watch it disappear to reappear on the smooth side. marvel at the wetness of the smooth side and marvel even more that the furry side is completey dry - wicking performance par excellence and i have heard of nor experienced anything that comes close (i think i may now though but only from anyone who has compared the two please)
so, paramo is too hot to wear in summer...i don't have a problem with that because i wear pertex to keep the worst of the rain off - wet from the outside or wet from within - i prefer from without.
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"P.S. Any views on a nylon shell (Paramo) vs polyester shell (Cioch)? (Both use the Parameta lining...)"
The guy at Cioch got things wrong, unless Paramo have changed how they make their jackets recently. The 2 Paramo waterproofs I have at home are polyester throughout, liner and outer (no nylon at all). As far as I know, Paramo waterproofs and windproofs have always been made from polyester.
I believe that it's much easier to make polyester water-repellant than nylon, although I could be wrong on this point.
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Parky,
a) Just to get clear, what youre really saying is that if one wears a Paramo jacket it is equivalent to wearing a Paclite (i.e. and ultra-lightweight Gortex from Berhaus) AND a 100 weight fleece at the same time.
So you're saying one needs (practically?) nothing underneath, right?
b) Likewise, what you say about "the mountain pull on type tops" having a "fabulous fabric"... with drops disappearing on one side and appearing on the other side... etc Are you still talking about Paramo jackets or something else!? Confused.
c) Regarding trousers, I'm quite tempted by the Viento trousers rather than the Cascada because one can turn them into shorts. If that works well that would be amaizing. It doesnt sound like they have a 2 layer bum line which would help a LOT.
d)Not convinced about the Pertex summer option. I walk/climb a lot in the West Highlands (Scotland) and the weather can change SO fast and p*ss heavily down in the process, so I would definitely err on the side of caution there...
The Important Bit
But here's the key thing: I think what Paramo want you to do (in summer/changeable conditions) would be wear a Fuera - i.e. just a shell with no Parameter liner. With a Taiga Fleece underneath it!
i.e. In practice, wear the "highly water replellent" Taiga fleece first and if it rains put the (unlined) Fuera over the top. The idea being that the rain would get through the Fuera (eventually, despite the water repellency) and but that the COMBINATION would be completely waterproof.
Interesting. So neither on its own would be water proof but together they would be. I've tried one of these water-repellent fleeces and can tell you that they work fine in drizzle (though tend to actually shed the water very poorly - it builds up in huge dropplets!), but heavy drops of rain go straight through the fleece.
One can imagine the finely woven shell taking all the impact out of a heavy down-poor, and likewise it's easy to imagine the rainwater getting no further.
"Running-hot" Solution
So... is that the answer to all you hot-running folks? Buy a Paramo in two separate layer: A light shell and a water-repellent fleece?
Mind you the combo aint exactly featherweight!
Taiga fleece: 892 g
Fuera Jacket: 532 g
---
1424 g
Plus how well would it work in practice against a full-on West Highland storm... ?
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 Ship
I refer to my earlier post on the lighter weight paramo-no it is not any less waterproof, but is definately lighter-why? i dont know why, and to be honest i dont really care as it works-incidentally it works very well.
I too was a sceptic till i tried some and i was so impressed i bought some.
I have the following items. Cuzco Jacket, Velez Smock, Cascada Trousers, Alta Trousers and a Mountain vent pull on oh and a Fuera Jacket. All except the fuera have kept me warm and dry from winter in Scotland to being caught recently in a torrential downpour on Bleaklow. I have been caught out in my fuera in heavy rain and got wet but was still warm.
I recently went to the scottish highlands when the weather was very warm at sea level but at the summits it was quite cold and wore my cascada trousers i unzipped them at the bottom and as i got higher the zips gradually got higher too-lovely and cool to lovely and warm-perfick.
There is only one way for you to make your mind up ship-borrow some or buy some.
And stop worrying about how it works...cos it just does.
Incidentally paramo is the only fabric i have found that will tolerate a Buffalo SP6 mountain shirt underneath. Tried it this winter not a drop of condensation between the two. Did it once with a Lowe Alpine Triple Point Ceramic Alpine Flash Jacket- Like a bloody swimming pool it was.
Just goes to prove that the breathability of Paramo is second to none.
Additionally its not just MRT that wear Paramo it is also standard issue to SARDA too.
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 (unconvinced by any paramo arguement but that is my opinion)
Slightly curious but I don't think I have ever seen any Paramo gear on MRT people in the Scottish Highlands, could be wrong, but the ones I know mainly wear Slioch branded gore-tex??
Where does the info for saying they do come from if you don't mind me asking??
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 I use my fuera under a (reversible) paramo explorer pull-on. bit more of a featherweight combo than the taiga option.
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Richard
Not all MRT wear Paramo or Gore or any particular fabric. Remembering that Teams/Areas are self governing under the umbrella of MR England & Wales It is the individual teams decision as to what clothing to wear. This decision is usually made by the comittee of the team after trialling kit etc.
I cannot make a quantifiable statement about MR Scotland though.
Incidentally though the MRT of which i am a member issues Paramo team Jackets, however a nearby MRT issues Slioch.
It is also worthy of note that a lot of the MRT's with lower profiles do not get huge amounts of cash to play with or free/cheap kit. So most team members have to purchase a large amount of kit at personal expense.
If you look at a Paramo info booklet it actually lists the MRT's that are currently using Paramo.
In my earlier post i was NOT making a sweeping statement that ALL MRT's wear Paramo.
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Richard
Go to the websites of SARDA Scotland & SARDA England and you will see that the Handlers are issued Paramo clothing.
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there is a deep green jacket avialable (good for birding). the zip-off trousers work fine. this has been a great thread. now stop faffing.
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Hear Hear
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 David G - I use my Velez for backpacking, scrambling, walking, ski-ing and mountainbiking (occaisonnally). The Velez is definitely very good for venting - the Cuzco my wife has got is not as verstile - don't know about any other Paramo jackets.
Got mine in a half price sale and was well chuffed as it suits all of my needs, all year round. There does seem to be a lot of sceptics and Paramo bashers out there but that seems irrelevant on a personal basis as it works perfectly for me and I wouldn't say I was feverently religous about Paramo (I own 3 items including one of their towels).
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> I use my fuera under a (reversible) paramo explorer pull-on.
> bit more of a featherweight combo than the taiga option.
Nigel, what happens when it rains?!
Sounds to me like you've got them on, on the wrong order! Surely the Parameta stuff is supposed to be *under* the shell... i.e. your explorer pullon (made out of Parameta S) will get soaked, no?
Wayne, why do you have Alta trousers *and* Cascada trousers? What's the difference? (Do they still make Alta trousers?)
And Wayne, sad to hear the Fuera leaked. But where you wearing a layer of Parameta underneath? (If so, bang goes my theory!)
Anyone, sorry another newbie question: What's the functional difference between a smock and a jacket. I've always had Jackets (for ease of ventilation so I thought) but maybe smocks with zips up to the armpits actually vent better...??
Fwiw, I already own a old green jacket, though it's rather too dark for most birding environments. And more importantly it had started to leak despite reproofing. I'm just getting the thing dry cleaned and will reproof shortly. more of which later.
Even if the reproofing works I may still want to re-buy to get something lighter.
I particularly like the look of the Aspira's upper arm vents - just a shame you cant get it in birder's green...
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sorry, fuera over explorer
you do talk a good walk....
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 Shippy:
The Alta's are winter trousers and have tough material around the ankles for resisting crampon snagging, mini gaiter things for dealing with powder snow, "access all areas" rainbow drop seat so you can wear them 24 hours day, etc. etc.
They're now called Aspira trousers. I've got a pair of small ones for sale (£70) if anyone is interested. I'll have to get an advert written up and stick it in the Adverts bit.
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shippy.
you remind me of a jack russell terrier, you don't appear to want to give up until the fat lady is singing. all power to your elbow, this has been a great thread for getting loads of detail and ideas out into the open.
if you're thinking about colour and zip postion and sweaty armpits, ring paramo and ask to speak to the chap in the factory 2nd's shop. he is very thorough in his knowledge base and really understands paramo.
you may be in for a surprise re what jacket is available in what colour, they have stuff that is non-standard in the factory shop i think. different colours and things with zips in places that will or will not get into production etc etc.
happy hunting.
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imho opinion a paramo jacket is equivalent to a 100 weight fleece and a shell.
what you wear underneath is your own choice. wear underneath what you would wear with a fleece/paclite.
taiga fleece and fuera windproof over the top is even warmer than the jacket as the fleece is thicker.(it's a fluffyish layer over the liner)
depends on how hot you think you run......one thing to bear in mind is that because of the breathability factor, you may not run as hot as you think you do when encased in something that doesn't breathe(comparatively)
the only thing for you is what you've experiemnted with.
the mountain pull on is a base layer - most comparable to a fleece.
over a proper t shirt, or by itself, you can sweat to your heart's content....the inside of the top is dry, the outside...well....wetter. you can feel hot after a bout of exercise but not wet. body heat will dry this out quite quickly.
oh! the only downside to the jackets is that you can get sweat condense in the pockets and make things damp - only happened to me skiing with paramo salopettes under a special 6 shirt. possibly why goretex dont have goretex pockets (or would that be the last thing you want is multiple layers of goretex near you)
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Firstly thanks Geoff for answering Ships question about Alta and Cascada trousers you are exactly right and to add to that they also have braces to keep them up.
Secondly Ship the Fuera jacket is not meant to be waterproof on its own but i have worn it in persistent light rain for hours and been happily warm and dry but on this occasion it absolutely banged it down as it often does here in the heart of the Dark Peak, but it is worthy of note that although wet i was still pleasingly warm wearing only a Helly Hansen lifa underneath and no the Fuera does not have a leyer of parameta it is a lightweight windproof water resistant jacket.
If you want the arm vents but dont want the weight of an Alta or Aspira try considering the Viento jacket. My wife has one and absolutely loves it.
I also know someone who has cascada trousers with the abrasion resistant material on the seat, knees and ankles now this is not standard they were sent to Paramo with a request for these extras and they gladly obliged, at a cost of course - id like to see other manufacturers match that!
And i have also worn my Fuera over an Explorer and remained dry just like Nigel
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 So all these post with differnt combo's so finding it a little mind bending?
so what jacket does you think is best? I walk on dartmoor and also further a field, been to snowdonia and the beacons already this year! I walk come rain wind or snow, i also do a lot of climbing so it'll need to fit a helmet! I'm eally impressed by paramo i have two explorer pull-ons and would like to get a good jacket before winter gets going. oh + i'm doing the ML as well if that helps in anyway?
P.S. i wear glasses so the hood does need to stop the rain as it helps when i'm out seeing where i'm going!
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