 I remember my old Scarpa Attacks, the precursor to the SL-M3s... The Attack sole unit married perfectly with the Berghaus Yeti Attack gaiter. 11 years they lasted me.
I run about in Raichle Mtn Trail GTX's now, with the Vibram sole, and to be fair, don't notice any difference in the wet with them. And Neil, short of wearing crampons, nothing has grip on wet timber!!
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 Grip on a shoe is a bit of a dark art. The truth is that very few materials & tread designs work well in all conditions. To grip a surface, you either need to rely on adhering to the surface or digging into it. At one end of the spectrum – the rock climbing shoe – with a smooth tread of soft sticky rubber that is designed to adhere to dry rock. For dry rock there isn’t much better… but wet rock or mud will turn them into ice-skates. At the other end of the spectrum is the hobnail & crampon approach, designed squarely at penetrating the softer surface (mud, ice – even rock) and relying on this for grip. I have always thought that the hard Vibram with deep treads used on Scarpas and other mountain boots tended towards the penetrating technique rather than relying on adhesion. The rubber holds quite well to dry rock, but is poor in wet conditions. I had some excellent fabric/suede boots from Meindl that stuck far better than Vibram, but also wore out pretty fast (Gerlos Sport GTX or something like that – now discontinued/replaced by a winter thermal boot). I can’t say I dislike Vibrams as I have had them on most of my boots, but there are so many different composites under the Vibram label that they aren’t easy to tell apart. I have Vibram soles on my current Meindl Island Pro which seem softer and stickier than those on my (as yet unused) Garmont Pinnacles. The Pinnacles feel just like the soles on my old Scarpa Alp M4s – a rubber stiff enough for quite technical edging, gripping well by penetration in snow, but not particularly sticky. So I think the best advice when buying boots is to make sure that the rubber chosen is suitable for the activities you intend to use them on and check the reviews! Some Vibrams are great – others aren’t. Unfortunately there is very little comparative information available : just take a look at the choice of Vibram soles for repairs and see how many of them say “very good slip-resistance and outstanding abrasion" ! Perhaps, given modern buying power, we’d rather have outstanding slip-resistance and very good abrasion?
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 The worst boots I've had are my current ones, a pair of Ksb's with the vibram sole, DON'T wear them on wet pavements! they are even slippery on mud etc. Worst things I ever bought! The only saving grace is that they were reduced!
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I've thought before that the reviews section should have a section for soles.
I've used Vibram Bifida (Karrimor KSB GTX 300 2005) and recently the Vibram Multigrip (Meindl Borneo Pro MFS 2007). The recently retired Bifida seems fine on pavements, also good on wet mud & grass. I don't know about rock as I rarly walk on rock apart from bits of the south downs where nothing but hobnails grips on the paste.
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| Edited: 19/06/07 13:28 |
I used to have a pair of the KSB GTX 300's, with aparently the same sole as my newer ones with the eVent lining, and never seemed to have a problem with them...
Weird
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John's link shows the Bifida, the newer models have something called the Bif eda which is different.
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on mine, the soles are the same, but the newer ones are KSB 200's not 300's with the eVent lining and (from the look f the pic) the BIFIDA soles. lol so damn complicated!
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Regarding the original post I also have Vasque hiking shoes with Vibram soles and they are very slippery on wet surfaces. I have fallen on wet stone or piece of wet wood. I stopped hiking with them, but also wearing it in town, a wet tile floor and I am all over the place. Was interested in Merrell shoes, but they too have Vibram soles. Not sure if this “wet surface problem” has been sorted out.
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My Meindle's were like ice skates going over the bottom of wastwater screes recently in the wet......good in the dry though. Scarpa rangers best grip in the wet all leather boot for me. I prefer Ivov-8 or personal favorites are Mizuno wave harrier 3's, (were called 2's) I got the yellow ones a few years ago and they wear well. Did TGO challenge, tour de mont blanc, alta via 1 etc in them and still lots of wear and grip left, best grip EVER! they also "mould" to the surface not "pivot like a bread board on a witches hat" now got mizuno's in blue, and this year's colour is red
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| Edited: 30/01/12 11:01 |
I have had the same problem with Vibram soles on a pair of Boreal walking boots. Fall on your arse as soon is it hits wet rock. However, I bought a new Winter boot - Scarpa Charmoz - it has a different Vibram sole with a "climbing zone toe". This performs well on all surfaces, wet rock included. I've used it in all conditions and all seasons - but found it too hot if it is over about +6 celsius (gore-tex but too hot an sweaty - crap breathability of gore tex is another rant).
Five Ten is the stickiest rubber I have ever used on anything. They do approach shoes and climbing boots but not hiking boots.
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Remember the first Merrels into the country. Bloody awful. I would suggest that the problem is a combination of several things. I have never had boots without Vibrams apart Galibier. Never had a problem that couldn't be attributed to the conditions or wishful thinking. However modern designs have put weight and clever ideas ahead of what works. I wonder how manyb people are failing to appreciate that what works on mud won't work on flat stuff. it has a different need. Compare your boots to racing slick tyres or the mud tyres on a off road prepped Landrover. However, when it rains you get wet and also the ground gets slippery. Hmmm
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