My first post, and I know this is a tough question to answer because there are so many variables, but some advice/suggestions would be hugely appreciated.

By way of an introduction, most of my previous camping has been either multi-day trekking in warm(ish) weather, or car camping and day walking when you can take every duvet in the house and make a gerbils nest in your tent! But last weekend I was camping at 650 m beside Dubh Loch in the southern Cairngorms (which is an awesome site btw -- beach and sand dunes alongside freshwater and snow patches!).
http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&GridE=-3.26200&GridN=56.93090&lon=-3.26200&lat=56.93090&place=Dubh%20Loch%2C%20Aberdeenshire&db=freegaz&scale=100000&search_result=Dubh%20Loch%2C%20Aberdeenshire&lang=&keepicon=true
I reckon it was -3 to -5 outside during the night as it was still a couple of degrees below when I got up. I was in my Snugpak Softie 6 Kestrel (comfort rated 0 to 10 degrees according to their website) with a fleece liner, base layer, 2 microfleeces, keks and socks and I was still cold! I am intending to do more such camping, potentially extending further into the winter, so I figured it was time to upgrade to a better sleeping bag (and certainly a pair of thermal longjohns too!).

Pack size and weight are important to me, so clearly a lightweight down bag is what's required. I really like the look, spec and price of Alpkit's Pipedream bags, and virtually all the comments I've read on this forum have been very positive (I haven't found any entirely negative ones), but I'm not sure if the PD600 would be warm enough for my requirements. So, I would like to tap into the many hundreds of years of combined experience available on this forum to see if people think a bag rated -7 (specifically Alpkit PD600) would be adequate, given the temperatures one is likely to encounter during low to mid-altitude camping in the Scottish autumn-winter-spring. This is bearing in mind that I have a fairly compact fleece liner at my disposal too, which I can either take or leave depending on the season/forecast, so in some ways it seems senseless to get a bag so warm that I will never have to use the liner, and then have to carry around an excessively heavy bag when the weather is warmer. (In an ideal world of course I would be able to afford 4 or 5 sleeping bags to suit the exact conditions I was expecting, but alas, 'tis not possible given my current studenty finances.) I think I would always be inclined to use a liner of some sort anyway, to protect the bag and reduce washing requirements; I could also throw in a silk liner to get a bit more from the bag and I don't mind wearing lots of clothes...clearly trying to talk myself into buying the PD600 here. But it is 250 g lighter than the Kestrel, which is very appealing, so if I got that I would take it into the summer too. I'm assuming it would also be a heck of a lot warmer than the Kestrel!? Alternatively, can people recommend other bags out there which are as light/slightly heavier than the PD600 with a significantly better rating. I can imagine anything which fits this bill will be significantly more expensive too. Or, even better, are Alpkit intending to extend their Pidedream range? Has anybody sent them an email asking about this?

I think that's quite enough. Sorry for the rather rambling nature of this post. Fire away with advice.

Cheers

Toby

I slept in mine last night at 920m on Carn Dearg. I had a Sea to Summit silk liner in it as well.
I went to bed fully clothed and ended up with just by base layer top on, I was comfy all night.
I don't know how cold it was but there was ice on the rock where I was doing my cooking in the porch and had spilled some water.
I like it, it's a good bag.

Really sorry the message is so wide, must be the long url I put in.

Does a silk liner add much warmth? Are we talking a couple of degrees or a whole season?

I read somewhere yesterday that a silk liner adds about 2degrees of warmth to a bag depending on the person in the bag.

im looking for a liner for my new pipedream 400 as i dont wanna make it all mucky lol

I've not read anything but having used a silk liner in a down bag for years I'd say 2 degrees sounds about right, certainly not a whole 'season' - you'd need a fleece liner to achieve that I reckon, but then the weight and bulk probably mean you'd be better off using a warmer bag to start with!

had a quick look through my history... http://www.rab.uk.com/products_liners_silk.html was where i saw the 2 degrees thing

A liner is great, I always use a silk one. Last night I just went into the liner dressed apart from my boots and got in the bag to cook diner.
Less faff, more warmth. A liner is easy washed and keeps the bag feeling and smelling fresh.

Packing wise, it's about the same size as a pertex windtop.

I hope it will, 'cos I've ordered one for my Scottish trip! The other option is to buy a down smock/jacket to wear inside (see Alpkit as well!). Don't underestimate how the cold gets you from the ground. Personally I use a long thin foam pad (tent protector foam cut to size, c.100g) underneath my Torsolite. Much warmer than using a Thermarest. In winter you might want a thicker mat (see Multimat).

hope that helps

My 600 has just arrived (RH zip, just be different). Very pleased. Seems well made. Good loft, even fresh out of the bag. The down seems quite "springy", so it must be good quality. I like the red piping! Can't wait to try it out.

I also ordered the Apollo II stuff sacks. Bargain!

The other option is to buy a down smock/jacket to wear inside (see Alpkit as well!).

My down bag (Vango Venom 225) only has a comfort range down to 8C so camping out at 560m in the Pentlands last night I wore my Alpkit Filo in the sleeping bag and was lovely and toasty in overnight temperature that can't have been much above freezing.

The Filo is useful about camp plus it and my Venom together way less than my synthetic 3-season bag and pack smaller.

I slept in my Pipedream 400 a few weeks ago high up and at -3 degrees and it was cosy, I would imagine with clothes and from what Pete says even without the 600 would be okay for Scottish Winter.

just used my pipedream 400 for a couple of days on the tabular hills walk..the first night it was absolutley freezing and i stayed toasty warm;o) so thumbs up to alpkit!

Many thanks for all your replies.

Bought a silk liner on Friday and used it Sat and Sun night in Glen Etive with my Snugpak Softie 6.
It was much warmer outside than last wknd, but I even got too hot wearing just my base layer.
Along with the comments above, this has pretty well convinced me that a PD600 and silk liner
would be adequate for all but the harshest of Scottish winter nights, and in combination with
a down jacket it would even take care of those.

I also had a look at a Rab Quantum 600 in Tiso (nearly 3x £££) which is rated -12 comfort.
If the loft of the Alpkit bag is anything like the Rab (a giant brute of a bag when set free)
then I can easily imagine it's warm enough for even a night on Pluto, nevermind Scottish winter!

Thanks again folks
Toby

HI Toby, which silk liner did you get?

which silk liner did you get?

I bought a Highlander liner from an Army/Navy store in Edinburgh (£30; 140(ish) grams). Only place I could find with any silk liners in stock!
However, I've since read some stuff about silk liners on this forum and realised I could have got a cheaper (and probably better) one, e.g. Jagbags.
I've also read some rather hair-raising stuff about Highlander concerning product durability and in particular their customer relations! So in hindsight I would have got a different one.
The liner seems ok though, well enough made, but I am inclined to dispute their claim that it "adds at least a season" to my bag!!!
I also have nothing to compare it to. Can anyone else comment on the silk quality or liner design compared to other manufacturers (feel free to say it's duff!)?
As for durability, I'll just have to see how long it lasts...

I used my new Pipedream 600 at Druim bothy in Knoydart at the beginning of May, and had to throw it off every night because I was too hot!

which silk liner did you get?

I ordered one from Jagbags in New Zealand for 32 US dollars including postage and it arrived in 3 or 4 days. I've used it a few times now and it seems excellent.

i got a jagbags one too, got one for me one for our lass and one for a mate ...total price was about £45 quid.

not used it yet but will do over then next couple of weeks

For extended trips I have a polypropylene sleeping bag liner that is warm and easily washed & dried. Its bulkier and heavier than silk, but probably warmer, equivalent to a fleece liner but less bulky and more elastic. It satisfies my fetish for polypropylene baselayer kit but I can't find any trace of the manufacturer (a small outfit called Otterwear I think..?). Nor can I find anyone making them now?

I also mention combining bags to cope with all-year round conditions here