Llewelyn - The old model I saw was blue with colour matched zips. The new models are all black that I have seen with blue or yellow zips for men and pink for the ladies. There are other slight differences too. Basically this years astron is all about the black and contrasting zips, last year was just about the product not the image IMHO. Contrasting zips seem to be the new black. Take a look at haglofs. The Lim waterproof was one of the first ones with this that I saw.
Well I'm going for the cheaper Rab VR smock (Pertex Equilibrium with a micro-fleece drop liner). I've been told it is warmer than haglofs reptile (powershield with a grid backing) yet cooler than the Rab Baltoro Guide (powershield with a fluffy pile backing). I'd consider the Baltoro Alpine as it is supposed to be like the guide but with a microfleece backing. I reckon the warmth rating of these brands in order of increasing warmth would be Reptile, VR / Baltoro alpine then Baltoro guide. Would you lot agree?
I am probably going for the VR as my local shop has a good price at the moment and although some of the others are stocked it does not have the alpine form of the Baltoro Jacket to compare with the VR top. I'd like to know if you guys had seen one and whether it is worthwhile finding one to compare. The baltoro alpine is more expensive than the Vr smock or jacket is it really worthe extra expense if you had already decided to get one of them?
I seem to remember a ME employee mentioning on this very forum that the only thing they had changed about the Astron this year was the colours, ie. fabrics and fit exactly the same. (The phrase he used was 'why change a winning formula?').
Regarding the warmth of the jackets, I would say Baltoro Alpine > VR > Baltoro Guide / Reptile.
(The Alpine is a lighter weight Powershield, with PS/Powerdry panels - ie. little insulation in those areas. I have a Reptile and have tried a Baltoro Guide and they are very similar in weight and warmth. In fact the Reptile has a full-weight hood, whereas the Rab has a Powershield Lite one, so may well be warmer in certain conditions. I'm basing the warmth of the VR garments on how they fit me - going up a size to get my shoulders into them, leaving the rest of the garment baggy and so less warm).
At the bottom of the page is a summery of study into softshells. It defines one + has some concustion about different types. But doen't really talk about what the test methods were .
Anyway would a sheepskin coat count as a softshell?
Boy did I start something when I put up the original post. When searching for a soft shell I tried on a Marmot Superhero. Brilliant fit, though the hood doesn't have a volume adjuster and I hate anything dropping into my eyes and giving me tunnel vision. In the end I rejected it not for that but because I reckon it would be far too warm for me - even in winter. In v-cold conditions I tend to wear thermal underwear for walking or climbing anyway. Thinner layers are my preference - shedding or putting them on as appropriate for the conditions.
Ultimately, a lightweight breathable shell is going to cut wind and rain out. I'm keen to experiment with how the ME Astron (my first dedicated soft shell if there is a definition at all) fits in to my layering system.
Llewelyn - I'd have thoght something similar to you about the order of warmth but the guy in the shop has tried them all on, even though not all sold there, and said that the reptile is not as warm as the VR. He said the grid pattern whilst being very efficient insulation for its bulk and weight was not that thick so would not have as much effect. The reptile is a thin material overall as demonstrated by the fact you can see the grid texture showing on the outside when loosely hanging on the hanger.
He did say that he didn't believe it until he had tried a few out. His opinion and that of other gear salesman is that the VR insulates more than expected because the inner and outer are not joined together in one layer of material. The insulation is effectively a dropliner that means it holds more still air and insulates more than you'd expect.
Now I am not sure how much of this is sales BS but I have dealt with the guy quite a few times because it is my local shop. I have never had any reason to not trust him based on my previous dealings. To put it bluntly everything he has sold me has done what he said it would, other shops have not always done that.
I guess like you said with you having to get the larger size than needed for your body to cope with you wider shoulders meant the fit wasn't right. I think getting the fit right would make the garment work to its fullest capability. With me the BR smock is a nice snug fit in large. The fabric has a chance to trap air as it is not tight when on me yet is has little excess fabric to allow the air to move. The arms are the right length and the body is snug. Although it is hard to put on over the head as it doesn't stretch it has a bit of space for an extra fleece if needed.
BTW my working towards getting a new softshell only came about because I always wanted a buffalo or montane extreme top. I was about to get one when I asked in a thread about how warm it was in active use. They basically seemed to say it is a bit too warm except in the coldest of weathers in this country. That moved me to find what would work better for a longer period of time yet is warm enough in winter with minimal under layers. I never wanted anew softshell nor needed one until I got re-directed from my passion for the Pertex/pile option. I find that funny as I now NEED a softshell.
> At the bottom of the page is a summery of study into softshells.
Also need to bear in mind that Furtech are unlikely to publish any studies that don't show their products in a good light... It's an interesting page, though, for sure, with a lot of good stuff on it.
The argument about allowing air space vs having close-fit clothing isn't quite as simple as it made out, in my experience. Closer-fitting items ensure there's a decent thermal gradient between your body and fabric, to drive moisture out. With a larger air space, there's a bigger temperature gradient across this gap, so the driving force is reduced, and condensation is more likely.
Just found the Rennies Softshell document again (MEC had moved their website about). I still think it's a great read looking at the origins, types and marketing drive behind the soft shell concept.
Llewelyn - I'd have thoght something similar to you about the order of warmth but the guy in the shop has tried them all on, even though not all sold there, and said that the reptile is not as warm as the VR. He said the grid pattern whilst being very efficient insulation for its bulk and weight was not that thick so would not have as much effect. The reptile is a thin material overall as demonstrated by the fact you can see the grid texture showing on the outside when loosely hanging on the hanger.
That's actually good news; I haven't used the Reptile in anger yet and I run hot so was a bit worried it was going to be too warm. I had noticed that the grid pattern was visible on the outer, but the fabric does feel pretty bomb-proof to me.
Much as I love Haglofs I only really got the Reptile because I got such a great deal (£70) and I knew it would be a perfect fit. (I had been considering P**amo for the winter, but finally got the chance to try on some of their stuff at Covent Garden and I'm obviously not designed for their fit - only the Quito had the correct arm length without going up 2 sizes, but the pay-off was the hood, which was about 2 sizes too small).
> Also need to bear in mind that Furtech are unlikely to publish any studies that don't show their products in a good light...
True, did come across a different summery about the pape and fur missed off the bit about "Paramo's jacket was slightly inferior to the Pertex and pile system used on a Buffalo jacket" (that's from link 1). But again it's only a summery. I'm not suggesting anyone can draw conclusions. Plus I think the test conditions seem to be 1'c and below. (link 2)
At the end of the day - to use a very cliched phrase - we can all talk about the technical merits of the various garments referred to in this thread, and it can all get very involved and pseudo scientific. What matters empirically is how does the stuff perform outdoors, never mind in a laboratory.
I'm all for judging on the basis of INDEPENDENT (and that's important) evidence from people out there using the products. Let's have some more posts in this vein.
QED "On a day out on Helvellyn I wore.... and it performed really well (badly)". Describing the experience, conditions etc. This, IMO, is a far better way to judge if products really do work.
And if you have a local shop you can trust to give impartial advice that's great. I was talking to a lad in Tiso's who said he was desperate to get his hands on an Astron hoody at the right price. The shop didn't have them in stock. His comments after a fairly lengthy chat about his own outdoor activities, helped influence my choice.
Thought I'd report back on the Astron Hoody now I've had the chance to wear it. Must say, after all the agonising about which soft shell to buy, it's been a very good choice. Fit is great and the hood adjusts well to prevent loss of visibility. I've managed to wear the jacket over just a base layer in sub-zero conditions in Scotland and found it comfortable - though admittedly I run hot. During a 10-hour winter traverse of the Five Sisters of Kintail the Astron kept me warm when I needed insulation, and during periods of exertion I could ventillate using the front zip.
Not sure yet how it will perform in warmer conditions but I deliberately avoided buying a jacket with a membrane to prevent boiling. The Astron has a light fleece lining so could potentially be worn next to the skin or over a very fine baselayer in warmer weather.
A versatile garment though, which won't break the bank compared with some other soft shells, and I'm happy to recommend it to anyone.
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