Hi, I just wondered if you guys think that wearing a pair of Icebreaker bodyfit 260 leggings with a pair of mountain equipment ama dablam pants over the top will be sufficient for winter mountaineering? Also, are icebreaker 260 leggings the best for winter?
It's a bit of an odd combination. The Icebreakers would probably be warm enough for any UK winter action, but any Merino stuff I have has little wind or water resistance so I reckon you'd need to put on the ME pants at the first sign of drizzle or a breeze, and you'd then risk getting very hot and clammy. Imo waterproofs should be a last resort, not something you wear a lot of the time. Also, the leggings are really (heavy) base layers, and I'd think the cut and look will reflect that. You'd probably be better off with a pair of softshell pants -- I like the ones made from Schoeller fabric — and some light waterproofs to go over those in dire conditions. Maybe also a pair of thin base layer leggings for really cold days, tho I hardly ever feel the need to use mine.
I was told that going for a pair of waterproof trousers with some leggings underneath would be warmer and more wind and water resistent than just going for some soft shell trousers. I'm guessing you're saying that wearing waterproof trousers all the time would not be a good idea? Do you know anything about the Haglofs mid fjell pants? I was looking at those and wondering if they'd be any good for winter walking?
It doesn't sound that odd to me. If by winter mountaineering you mean 'beyond walking' and getting into the territory of wearing a harness and using a rope? Keeping shell pants on all day is a perfectly sensible approach in that situation, as is having a pair durable enough to survive a lot of abuse, which a lightweight pair won't be.
Such a heavyweight merino legging should provide a lot of warmth but I wonder if it'll be enough on its own in the very worst conditions. I'd maybe consider looking at Powerstretch leggings or even the Paramo Stretch Pant as an alternative. They'd also have the advantage of looking a bit more normal if you ever did hit conditions too hot to keep the shell pants on.
Maybe not odd for winter mountaineering overseas (tho I don't know that from experience), but I'd reckon not ideal in the UK. A lot of climbing routes in these islands involve the dreaded walk in, and I'd not want to wear waterproof trousers for that unless I absolutely had to. I'm no great fan of softshell tops, but I'd say softshell trousers would cover a lot more conditions you're likely to meet.
Not an odd combination at all IMHO. I use Gore-Tex salopettes with Icebreaker 200 leggings and a pair of merino shorts underneath for much of my ski touring and think it's a perfectly good combination for winter conditions. If you get too hot just open the side zips.
Do you already have the Icebreaker leggings? If not, a pair of Powerstretch leggings would be worth trying on as well, as Matt suggests. They might have more stretch than a pair of thick Merino leggings.
in winter mountaineering i don't bother taking off shell trousers or gaiters at all. maybe i don't sweat much from the waist down.
on my bottom half i actually wear a base layer, fleece-lined non-shell trouser, and shell overtrouser on top of all that, then gaiters, and stay like that all day. my top half gets all the adjustment. just base layer with shell while active, and then on come the layers when i stop.
a pair of waterproof trousers with some leggings underneath would be warmer and more wind and water resistent than just going for some soft shell trousers
Yes... but is that necessarily a good thing? More is not always better, especially if it means you get sweatier. Something like Schoeller Dryskin or Power-Shield trews/salopettes will give you better freedom of movement than overtrousers and still keep you warm and toasty in most conditions. Being close fitting thanks to the stretch you're also much less likely to put a crampon through them, and you won't rustle with every step and catch the wind so much.
If you want to go for something light under waterproofs I'd suggest something like stretch fleece tights, which are wind resistant enough on their own to be used without the o-trews far more of the time on stuff like walk-ins before you get the serious weapons out.
i don't bother taking off shell trousers or gaiters at all... seems less faff this way
Gaiters, fair enough, shell trousers, more faff than never putting them on to start with. I much prefer a stretchy salopette (I use MEC Powershield ones, used to use old Rohan Super Salopettes).
I've tried on a pair of the Haglofs trousers, which struck me as being for warmish weather walking rather than the depths of winter. They would probably be ok for winter mountaineering in this country, but you'd need to wear leggings under them and/or waterproofs over them quite a lot, so I wouldn't think they're by any means ideal. The Murallons are, I think, made from the same M3 material as some Scree pants I've got. They're ok in the winter, but not as windproof and warm as some, so again not ideal. Not sure about the ATVs.
Thanks - can you recommend any trousers made from the Schoeller fabric? And do you know if the marmot powerstretch pants are any good? Sorry for the mound of questions, I'm only just starting to understand all this technical stuff!
The Mountain Equipment Combin pants are well worth a look. Good Schoeller fabric and all the right features look to be there. I can't justify getting a pair myself because I've still got a pair of excellent Berghaus Schoeller troos that are still going strong after a number of years, but unfortunately are no longer made.
Marmot make good stuff and PowerStretch is a good material, so the combination should be good too as long as the fit is right for you. Other companies make Powerstretch leggings as well. If you do go down this road it might be worth getting a pair of Pertex "overtrousers" to go over the top -- Montane do some. They're very light but add hugely to the warmth of the leggings, without making you sweaty like waterproof OTs.
can you recommend any trousers made from the Schoeller fabric?
Sure... ones that fit you well. The particular fabric usually favoured for stretchy trews is called Dryskin, Schoeller make various others. Also note that 3XDry and Nanosphere are not fabrics but treatments.
Mammut make Schoeller trews in ladies' sizes, look for (I think...) the Champ and Base Jump.
My wife uses Patagonia Alpine Guides, which aren't Schoeller but are something similar and very good and available in ladies' sizes (and thus shapes) too. She's been very pleased with them.
I have the men's version of these Haglofs Ibex II Q Pant. You might be able to get them a bit cheaper than some of the other recommendations because they use Haglofs own material.
I find them very wind and water resistant so I don't even own waterproof trousers. I also don't need to wear leggings underneath them whereas I used to wear Icebreaker 200s under my old Craghopper Kiwis in the winter.
I think the important thing here is to identify what the OP means by 'winter mountaineering'. Until we've sorted that out, I don't think sensbile comments can be made.
If the OP means 'winter walking', then I'd suggest soft shell trousers, with a pair of lightweight waterproof overtrousers.
If the OP means graded winter climbing (axes, ropes, etc.), then waterproof trousers over some lightweight insulation (e.g. heavyweight base layer, or PowerStretch tights), isn't a bad (or unusual) approach at all. I'd look for genuine waterproof trousers rather than overtrousers, as the cut will be slimmer, which can be helpful for the walk-in. Alternatively, take a pair of lightweight windproof trousers to wear over the base layer on the walk-in.
<reads Nicola's second post: 'winter walking'. In which case, soft shell trousers: something in Schoeller Dryskin Extreme, or shelled micropile (Rab VR Trail, for instance).>
Been a while since I did Proper Winter Climbing, but when I used to do that I used Rohan Super Salopettes (i.e., stretch soft shell) in preference to waterproof trews or sloppets, and never had cause to regret that. If I did it again I'd be using my Powershield salopettes.
If anything, the more contortionist side of climbing makes a stretch fit better for climbing than it is for walking, IMHO.
I have ME Combins and they're excellent for walking and scrambling in pretty much all seasons really. Good water and wind resistance with excellent breathability. Those plus a lightweight pair of waterproof overtrousers if the weather gets really shite should do most things.
I also have a pair of Haglofs Sharkfin pants, which are very tough windstopper pants with waterproof zips, leg vents etc. Brilliant weather resistance and decent stretch, so great for climbing, but probably overkill for winter hillwalking. Their Omni pants (or Omni Qs for the OP, I guess) would be a good compromise in between the two.
Amusingly, it's left to me to suggest Paramo legwear of some kind. I'm not sure what they do in women's fit, but they do actually work very well in most Scottish winter conditions provided they have adequate venting.
I've used all sort of combinations depending on conditions, my favourite all-time winter trousers were actually a pair of Macpac ones made using PowerShield and Powerstretch panels, I think. Over trousers over a baselayer tight can be a very effective combination, but look for venting side-zips or you may end up overheating.
The bottom line is that there's no 'right' answer. Different combinations suit different folk with different shapes and physiologies. Windstopper-type softshell is actually very good in dry, alpine conditions, if you run reasonably cool, but if you're really sweaty, maybe not so good.
I have the 260s and would be very surprised if they were warm enough under a shell alone, unless you run very hot. Personally, I prefer to leave the shell for when it gets really horrid, as GH suggested - otherwise what do you do when it does get nasty? I love the Paramo Cascadas, but have the same concerns with them, so have taken to carrying a light pair of overtrousers just in case, if I'm using these. These have side zips too, so compatible with the Cascadas for ventilation.
The 260s are heavy, so for trips when I might be carrying longjohns, I use Patagonia ones, very much lighter, tho they won't go for weeks without honking. Irionically, that's the time when the stink-free qualities of merino is at it's most valuable, but I don't want the extra weight. Patagonias wash and dry quickly if necessary.
