Although I do think these things should be grouped by (1) air permeability and (2) insulation value and making clear there isn't anything truly dramatially different from wind shirts.
Its all continous of course, but treat as discrete. Probably two majorAir permeability groups: 'practically' windproof (CFM about 5), semi windproof (CFM ~8-10).
(CFM cubic feet/minute of air flow through the garment, I assume at some standard pressure.).
'Practically' windproof, non insulating. Mainly classical windshirts, covered elsewhere But also the odd super deluxe bit like the ascenionist. Note the preference for light weight here comes from the way they're carried an awful lot.
Non insulating semi windproof garment is basically aimed at people working hard enough to overheat in a 'standard' windshirt. Not so common perhaps but do exist (mesh back windshirts, or even just an open weave 'windshirt' - I've got one.).
Semi windproof garments with a little insulation - half to a whole microfleece?
Aim here is to produce something you set off wearing with about the same layers underneath as with a windshirt. You then offset the mild extra wamth by the additional air permeability, but with an extra reserve of warmth (and more airflow) when you do shut it down by putting your shell/insulation on over the top.
That makes an awful lot of sense to me in some conditions. The biggest drawback when compared to windshirts is weight. These things are often ~300g so a bit more suited to wearing than carrying.
Bits with more insulation - basically a straight trade off between outright flexibility and certain minor benefits you get from rolling it all into one garment. Well with P****o you do get waterproofing so quite a major one
it's just all so compulsive. i find myself always gravitating back to a small hardcore of layers. have i ever mentioned i like gilets/vests? fortunately there aren't that many available as i only have 6 (i think).
Then get thee directly to Open Air on Green Street!!!
For some reason, I'd never noticed this place. I don't feel too bad, as my other half hasn't either, and they've lived in Cambridge for years. So, I may go take a peek later this week and see what's on offer. Cheers!
Parky Again wrote (see)
it's just all so compulsive. i find myself always gravitating back to a small hardcore of layers. have i ever mentioned i like gilets/vests? fortunately there aren't that many available as i only have 6 (i think).
My limited income saves me here, I think I just narrowly resisted buying a non-drishell minimus vest from PHD, telling myself that I already had a nice light down jacket and buying a softshell would be a more useful autumn purchase...
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So, yeah.
I spent some time following up the various threads linked from this one, and come to the conclusion that the sort of things I was looking at probably aren't all that useful for me. I still think that the Haglofs shells look very nice, but they are fairly heavy for what they offer.
Right. Plan B.
I still feel I'd like something a bit more substantial than a windshirt, something capable of warding off rain and sleet for a bit if needs be, and something which I'm not going to wear through after a season because I've done a bit of scrambling or worn a big pack over it. Non-insulating for preference, but I do want a hood with a peak to keep some of the weather out of my eyes and the back of my neck.
A few items came to light in my searching, namely:
Paramo Fuera Ascent
Rab Alpine Pull-on
Montane Dyno (2010)
There were some other likely looking items, but they've not been listed because they're either unobtainable (like the Ready Mix) or more than twice the price of any of the three above (Ascensionist). There seem to be quite a few softshells with close-fitting hoods, something which I've never really liked. I'd rather have a real hood, or no hood, thanks.
I'm leaning towards the Dyno at present, as I prefer jackets to smocks and whilst there are positive reviews of the Fuera, it seems to be a bit of a lottery as to whether Paramo gear will fit you well and I don't want something either too confining or flappy and irritating. The nearest Paramo dealer is a good 50 miles away, which isn't really convenient enough to pop in to and try on a couple of things.
I've had a bit of a job finding much in the way of reviews of these things, or really useful information about their materials... it was suggested that the pertex equilibrium in the Rab and Montane is a littletoo wind permeable, but its hard to find out how much this actually matters, especially if you're actually burning calories instead of sitting around moping.
I don't suppose one of you guys has already tried all three?
In my opinion the Mountain Equipment G2 Alpine is a softshell that does what it's hyped to do. I've used one for three winter seasons now and won't be replacing anytime soon. Can be had for a decent money, too, if you shop around.
I noticed the other day on the ME website that they have a couple of new similar ones too that look good.
I've got an Alpine pull-on and I've tried the other two on. The Fuera Ascent would fit great if I got pregnant and cut my arms off at the elbow. And the Dyno was too neat a fit, short arms, and heavy with lots of features I didn't want. The hood, long arms, ventilating pockets and relatively light weight made the Alpine the one for me. Certainly wouldn't worry about it's wind-permeability - I've been on the tops in Scotland recently in 40+ gusts and smirr with no problems - the clever fitting hood and high neck are at least as important at keeping the wind out as some technical feature of the fabric. But it is only a windshirt really, and you say you want something more substantial, so ymmv. And you have to think how it will fit into your system and your intended use. Just don't believe in miracles. And do get to a shop, or buy online and return the one(s) you don't want - there's nothing like feeling the stuff and trying it on - well worth the postage or the petrol.
The alpine pull on is equilibrium light which is some recent, tighter woven version of equilibrium. So very likely more wind resistant than the dyno which I think is traditional equilibrium. (well the recycled version.).
RABs Fusion stuff seems to use yet another different form of equilibrium. (probably more wind resistant.). But you wouldn't ever tell from their website RAB really are markedly unhelpful in that you can't even really - as you can with some other folk - obviously tell its different fabrics in different jackets without hunting down reviews on line, comparing them in a shop etc etc.
And yes trying stuff on if remotely possible always a very good idea.
In my opinion the Mountain Equipment G2 Alpine is a softshell that does what it's hyped to do. I've used one for three winter seasons now and won't be replacing anytime soon. Can be had for a decent money, too, if you shop around.
I'm keen to avoid membrane softshells, for reasons of durability and cost if nothing else! I'm inclined to believe people who say they don't breathe so well, either.
ALoveSupreme wrote (see)
I've got an Alpine pull-on and I've tried the other two on. The Fuera Ascent would fit great if I got pregnant and cut my arms off at the elbow.
That's a wonderful description of Paramo's fit
ALoveSupreme wrote (see)
Certainly wouldn't worry about it's wind-permeability - I've been on the tops in Scotland recently in 40+ gusts and smirr with no problems - the clever fitting hood and high neck are at least as important at keeping the wind out as some technical feature of the fabric. But it is only a windshirt really, and you say you want something more substantial, so ymmv. And you have to think how it will fit into your system and your intended use. Just don't believe in miracles.
Yeah, that was certainly my assumption... the internet has a terrible tendency to take perceived failings and blow them up out of all proportion. Good to have it confirmed, though!
I think its probably a bit more than 'just a windshirt' though; but maybe thats cos I associate windshirt with a sort of long sleeved pertex tee which weighs less than my underwear. Many that I've looked at lack anything that even pretends to be a hood, which is something I'm definitely after right now.
Martin Carpenter wrote (see)
The alpine pull on is equilibrium light which is some recent, tighter woven version of equilibrium. So very likely more wind resistant than the dyno which I think is traditional equilibrium. (well the recycled version.).
Ahh, interesting. I wasn't even able to tell from anywhere that there was more than one grade of equilibrium. Everything is so driven by the marketing guys its practically impossible to find any actual facts anywhere like fabric weight or wind permeability figures...
Martin Carpenter wrote (see)
RABs Fusion stuff seems to use yet another different form of equilibrium. (probably more wind resistant.). But you wouldn't ever tell from their website. RAB really are markedly unhelpful in that you can't even really - as you can with some other folk - obviously tell its different fabrics in different jackets without hunting down reviews on line, comparing them in a shop etc etc.
They aren't too helpful with their colours either. I spent some time on various website's sale pages trying work out what the colour of the baltoro alpine was... 'fig', 'maya', 'thunder', 'medina'. Thunder was easy enough (grey), but the other three required me to find somewhere which actually matched colour names to jacket photos and hope they got it right!
RABs Fusion stuff seems to use yet another different form of equilibrium. (probably more wind resistant.). But you wouldn't ever tell from their website RAB really are markedly unhelpful in that you can't even really - as you can with some other folk - obviously tell its different fabrics in different jackets without hunting down reviews on line, comparing them in a shop etc etc.
Martin that is so true, but not just of RAB, I find it really frustrating when trying to read up about a piece of kit and manufacturers seem to follow one of two routes;
1) remain as vague as possible about the materials used and their properties
2) blind you with numbers and figures in relation to waterprrofness and windproofness and breathability that (to most of us) is completely incomrehensible
I suspect the main reason is that all these fabrics are much of a muchness, despite all the claims to the otherwise, so the manufacturers lawyers are very careful about the claims made for the fabrics used.
A tangential note in passing here as to usefulness...
It's chucking it down here this morning, so when I cycled the kids to school I used the hard shell. Won't need to pick them up this evening so I dropped the bike at home to walk back to work, and then I dispensed with the hard shell and swapped it for the soft one, plus an umbrella. As long as you've got a hand free a good brolly can render a soft shell all you need in buckets of rain. If the good brolly is a Senz that can be trueon a windy day too!
Madnening I admit With waterproof fabrics yes a lot of it is that they're fairly similar.
There are obviously a lot of ways to produce a wind resistant thing with a varying level of warmth - woven outer fabric with stitched liner shelled micropile), ditto with a cleverly glued liner (power shield) or just weave the whole lot together into one blob (Patagonia/various Flexables/ Equilibrium by itself etc.).
I'm sure there are subtle differences between these but the crucial thing is the final performance which is broadly governed by two things - air permeability and warmth. I'd imagine you can mess with the construction to produce almost any combination of these
And they do this - hence sundry different flavours of power shield, equilbrium etc etc. They're all useful in certain uses but there are also quite big performance differences between them. Not bad or good, just different! Just saying 'powershield' by itself really isn't terribly useful.
Some folk like Haglofs, Patagonia etc do at least name the different flavours of fabrics and describe their construction. Thats at least useful for rebuying purposes and you can mostly figure the warmth out.
Take another example from RAB - the Shadow Hoodie (wind pro) thats just 'lightly' air resistant. Notably less so than even a VR I think. Does that make it bad? Of course not. But how you'd tell that from the website.....
Or how the Baltoro's/VR (or the Exodus) stack up against each other, but thats probably asking for miracles
Well, to bring some closure to this thread: I got a Montane Dyno in the end. having a zip and a wired peaked hood did it for me. Not yet given it a proper test, so I don't know how windproof the surprisingly gauzy fabric is in real weather , nor how effective the DWR is.
I've not yet had a chance to compare it to the Rab Alpine pull-on either, as Open Air didn't have any around when I visited. The Baltoro jacket was definitely a cold-weather sort of thing, and it would be much too warm for me outside of properly chilly weather.
Speaking of Open Air... OMG I can't believe I've never investigated it before! So much awesome stuff. I'll definitely be back there next time I have any money. Amusingly, the guy I spoke to in there mentioned that there was an unusual amount of traffic to their website from OM recently, caused by this very thread.
Montane, one of (my most?) favourite outdoorsy vendor, currently own 4 of their tops. My Prism is one of my most used cool-weather tops for when I'm not expecting it to get heavy rain. I am trying to improve on it!
If you're concerned with the Dyno consider also packing a Litespeed to wear when instead or to layer over if you get worse conditions. There is also the Montane Slipstream which is ridiculously light so not for regular backpacking use.
I feel your pain on the issue of not having the opportunity to try stuff on. The only way which solves fit and cost is to plan a year ahead. That sounds hard work but over a year any particular item will eventually come up for 50% off or someone has a used item. You also over a year pass by shops and try stuff on for fit. It gets a bit embarresing when you get to a good shop and spend over an hour trying on all the things you're interested in and walk out (almost) empty handed.
You then have ebay or Craiglist for ridding of the odd (hopefully few) mistakes
This autumn, I bought 4 tops and am selling 4 tops. Peak activity is spring buying winter stuff and autumn buying summer stuff.
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