I was using the Reptile II last night on Kinder back to back with the new Berghaus Windstopper soft shell, er, the Badile, and it reminded me of just what a good fabric Power Shield is and how much more breathable than Windstopper Soft Shell if you run hot.
I haven't used the ROM, but my basic take on Windstopper Soft Shell is that it works well in very cold, dry conditions - the Alps for example - but tends to get a little hot and sweaty working hard in the more humid cold we have in the UK - you can counteract that a little using pit-zips and other venting, but if you run hot, Power Shield is arguably a better fabric and while it's a little less protective, mostly you won't notice and with either option, you'll be using a lightweight waterproof over the top in wet conditions anyway.
Powershield seems logical - some perfectly decent RAB/ME offerings too of course.
While you're at it I'd look at Montanes Krypton. Seemingly similar design to the Sabertooth (pockets moved about) and likely very similar performance. Only big difference no stretch in the krypton but it really is a lot cheaper. Or RABs vapour rise stuff.
The ROM does at least seem to have hybrid stretch woven side panels which might help a bit. Actually if you want a hybrid thing like that then RABs fusion might make sense. If anyone sells them that is
My hard shell is a rab latok alpine, so I don't want to buy a softshell that is only marginally more breathable than my eVent shell. That would be pretty pointless. From what Jon has said, it sounds like a windstopper jacket may be only slightly better than a hard shell in terms of breathability (obviously worse in protection). This is why i'm more tempted by the powershield stuff.
Sound like i've got that right in my head?
Martin: cheers for the options, i'll have a better look at them later.
From what I've read here its more or less GoreTex Mk1, before they put the PU coating on it. Oh and no seam tape. So yes breathable as shells go but quite what it does that an Event jacket doesn't - except leak at the seams of course! - genuinely not clear.
Far from totally useles of course but I do wish they hadn't tried calling it a soft shell. Greatly adds to the confusion really.
I've just noticed, the Haglofs Reptile II, which is appealing to me a lot now, seems rather heavy; 680g (M). This seems like a lot, yet all the windstoppers (which are supposedly more protective) seem to be about 200g lighter. This seems odd doesn't it?
The reason the Reptile II is slightly weighty is that it has a very thin micro-gridded fleece liner, which adds some extra insulation for winter user - appromiately a base-layer's worth, I'd say, which is why it's a winter season product I think. Rab's Baltoro Alpine uses similar stuff and is again, just under 700g.
Not really a priori. The protection from windstopper is from the waterproof membrane - thats very thin layer which of course weighs not a lot.
Powershield is basically two layers sort of glued together somehow. But fancy so it works
Most of the weight from outer fabric and backer. You'll be wearing it not carrying so toughish outer fabric seems logical enough. The backers then tend to be some form of fleece/thermal base layer stuff to give some amount of warmth, obviously more weight increasing that.
Having said that..... Boiga hood in 300g/m2 flexable = 630g. Reptile hood in 192g/m2 of Power shield = 750g?? Must be the lead weights in the pockets (or a typo. It happens.).
Surely you want minimum insulation, since breathability is the point of a soft shell, i.e not getting sweaty when you work hard, but retaining protection from wind. Then if you get a bit nippy pop a jumper on, just like if you were wearing a shell.
Think a lot of people here would agree with you. Year round use, no question. Still some insulation can have marginal benefits in colder months. Warm hoods and the like.
Mostly suspect its just easier to sell something as a 'fleece replacement' than as an extra layer to use because that waterproof you've spent ages talking up isn't quite so comfortable to wear when active as you said it was not that long before
Anyhow for non insulating wind/shower protection, see wind shirts. Tons of threads here and some very nice options. There are also a few basically non insulating hooded/pocketed thing out there. Sort of super wind shirts for when you'll be wearing it.
Montanes Dyno, RABs Alpine pull on/Exodus, Haglofs Viper II (summer only mind), Patagonia's Ascenionist (canned for now), Norrona Svalbard flex 1 actually (importable from Tammarack) etc.
Perhaps not trivial to find now the shops/manufacturers are fixed into 'winter' mode.
I've tried the Rab Baltoro Alpine, a powershield jacket, and decided that it was too insulating for use outside of winter (however, I run hot) given that its effectively a lightweight fleece and windshirt bonded together. I went with a cheapy microfleece and a montane dyno in the end, and they'll be useable all year round.
I suspect powershield is best when its mostly cold and dry too... I wouldn't hesitate to use it for skiing, for example. For UK use, I don't think if offers anything over the usual fleece/windshell combo. Have you considered something like the Cioch Glamaig instead? Comparable in weight and price, and possibly more practical in wet UK weather though I haven't compared the two styles of jacket in actual weather and I don't think anyone else has either and mentioned it on the interwebs
Far from totally useles of course but I do wish they hadn't tried calling it a soft shell. Greatly adds to the confusion really.
Part of the problem that boils down to "soft shell" being a nebulous marketing term meaning different things to different folks. Patagonia seem to think that anything which needs water to be vapour to get through isn't a "soft shell", while other folk think it means anything that can't be certified waterproof, andmany shades between...
Surely you want minimum insulation, since breathability is the point of a soft shell, i.e not getting sweaty when you work hard, but retaining protection from wind.
"Breathability" usually means permeability to air/water vapour. It doesn't account for any level of insulation. If you're in a basically cold place you'll want insulation but you'll also want breathability, or your insulation will gradually fill up with water as vapourised sweat re-condensesand water conductsheat much more effectively thanair, especially static air.
Then if you get a bit nippy pop a jumper on, just like if you were wearing a shell.
Insulated soft shells save you the bother, and make a lot of sense in the sort of places where you (a) will be cold and (b) really don't want to re-layer. Like a dubious belay on a winter climb. Ski touring, unless the sun's out, is similarly a place where if you want windproofing you'll probably want a bit of extra warmth too.
Having said that, there are [plenty of places where an uninsulated one makes a lot more sense. I use a (now discontinued) Patti Ready Mix quite a bit and really like it, walking, cycling and skiing (tour and downhill). It is the case that a simple Pertex windshirt will do what you want, but a jacket like the Ready Mix is more comfortable and quieter in the win, and just basically nicer unless you're in a relative hurry (i.e., running or (in my case) XC track skiing).
Fascinating how Paramo fits in actually. Potential benefits in use certainly present - not carrying a shell nice of course - but you'll be wearing the soft shell/wind shirt/whatever most of the time anyway. Even in the UK, it doesn't rain hard anything like every day
But even (oddly) treating it as a soft shell its a tough barrier for a lot of things - you can't get more breathable without going notably more air permeable and you certainly won't get as waterproof, let alone more.
So to make genuine sense stuff needs to be either cheap, lighter or less warm. Or ideally the whole lot.
Perfect fit on a Glamaig so no stretch, generous cuts etc not really an issue. Basic jacket at 170. And with the price raises over the past year or two, the RRP of medium weight power shield jackets has got up to 150 and yes it does make you wonder a little.
Still something like the vapour rise stuff is a touch less warm/more air permeable, lighter and floats around 100. Or Montane's new Krypton at 85 etc. Or of course the non insulated stuff.
Of course Paramo is still UK only really, while a lot of the brands are Europe wide and have to set consistent prices on that basis.
Perfect fit on a Glamaig so no stretch, generous cuts etc not really an issue.
Up to a point... "perfect fit", even when made to measure, is a relative term. If something fits me "perfectly" when I'm standing up normally then it doesn't fit me as perfectly when I'm sat down. Or bending over, or reaching up for a hold, or whatever. And vice versa. Stretch makes a lot of difference to that, though to be fair it makes a much bigger difference in torews than tops.
I took the plunge and bought a Marmot ROM recently (sale price £99). I'm a big lad (113kg, 5ft 9"), but pretty fit and love fell walking.
I went out in the Yorkshire Dales over the weekend, 30mph NE winds, sub zero temps, loads of snow on the ground, using this for the first time in anger with a Lowe Alpine Elite Power stretch as a mid layer and an LA short sleeve base layer.
The windproofing was pretty much total, barely felt a thing (was out for 4 hours) and the breathabilty was pretty impressive too as the power stretch top certainly kept me very warm and I sweated up quite a bit whilst climbing Great Shunner Fell. The inside of both items were absolutely bone dry on return, although the power stretch top was pretty soggy on the outer.
If I'd say one thing about the ROM, I bought the XXL and it's a very generous fit. I'm a 48 chest and it left plenty of room, arguably slightly too much although the bungee cords allowed me to tighten things up comfortably. It's also rather longer than a "traditional" soft shell jacket which with that wind blowing was very welcome!
Early days, but I'm pretty impressed. How it copes with the rain though may well be another matter.
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