 Well basically I'd agree. Except that some of the recent microbaffled down things do work somewhat better with a layer over them, to mitigate some of that rather stupid warmth loss. Certainly don't bother if you're carrying them for insulation as a Fuera massively heavy in those terms. Oh about active use, synths just don't do anything (relevant!) better than fleece. Meanwhile you get much worse moisture transmission and durability. Now if you're aiming to carrying to let you adjust warmth a bit to compensate when it gets notably colder up the mountain or the like, then they have the huge advantage that you'll use them, as opposed to leaving it sitting in your pack and freezing 
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| Edited: 23/09/11 09:43 |
 Oh about active use, synths just don't do anything (relevant!) better than fleece. Apart from weigh and bulk less for the same insulation value, of course. I had rather got the impression over the last few years that people were quite keen on stuff being lighter and less bulky... you get much worse moisture transmission One thing I suspect you might well get is a great deal less moisture retention. There isn't anything particularly blocking vapour moving through so my guess is a fleece plus windshirt won't be especially more breathable in terms of getting damp out than a light insulated top. is this really pointless compared to a microfleece top that would bulk and weigh more? Durability, absolutely. Which is why I'll dig out my old U-Fleece jacket if I'm off climbing on a slightly nippy day, and of course it won't suffer the insulation degradation we've been talking about but as noted that takes years and if you're not rubbing up against rock we're at the point where the weight and bulk issues may be moretelling. Pete.
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That extra, inner, layer of windproof nylon really isn't going to help cf sweat transmission. A fleece both lets tons of sweat straight through to any outer barrier you've got (or not if none used), and even picks some of it up directly through its fibres. The insulating things do neither. Think one other thing is that they do also tend to be just too warm rather easily. Nasty effects possible in combination cf the bottom of this thread. Rather an extreme case/conditions of course! cf moisture retention, don't forget how Buffalo works! Open weave fleece really doesn't hold much water at all. Really though its the durability (and increased original cost) which gets to me more. Not just the insulation loss, but also that 'fragile' microfibre outer fabric. Pointless? Of course not Just a lot worse than fleece for something you'll start off wearing/wear most of the time. If you're going to carry it a lot then sure!
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That extra, inner, layer of windproof nylon really isn't going to help cf sweat transmission. A fleece both lets tons of sweat straight through to any outer barrier you've got (or not if none used), and even picks some of it up directly through its fibres. The insulating things do neither. Thobut if you've an open-weave fleece on as your insulation there'll be plenty of times you need to faff about with an extra layer on top to windproof it which you just don't need if your wind layer is already there. I usually use a Microtherm rather than my old u-fleece jacket simply because the windproof outer makes it more use, more of the time as a standalone garment The current TGO has an insulated top gear test. No mention in there of breathability problems. Think one other thing is that they do also tend to be just too warm rather easily Too warm too easily, get a thinner one! A Spark Vest weighs less than a lot of uninsulate dwind jackets, it's not going to boil you alive. cf moisture retention, don't forget how Buffalo works! Open weave fleece really doesn't hold much water at all. It hold loads! All the space that can trap air will also trap water. Buffalo works on the principle that you'll be warm even if you're wet, not that you'll be dry. I often use a fleece as a towel: that wouldn't work if they didn't hold water. Ultrafleece is notably tighter woven than most, and it makes an inferior towel because of it. Pete.
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 I don't think synthetic insulation is good for active use for me; I use it mostly for static warmth, where its light weight, low bulk and wind resistance make it more useful than a fleece. An equivalent warmth fleece would be a lot heavier and bulkier. I've only ever used synthetic insulation for active use as an overlayer in very, very cold, windy conditions in Scotland, where I needed to stay active to keep warm, even with the overlayer... For active use, I do prefer to have fleece next to my base layer, as this allows pretty much unimpeded vapour transfer to the (usually wind resistant) shell. Wearing a lightweight synthetic item as a fleece mid-layer replacement would put a shell layer next to my base layer. Not much different to the situation of wearing a wind shell over a base layer, you might think, but the extra insulation layer and outer shell layer make a fair difference, and I find it a bit clammy. I also prefer to be able to separate my active insulation layers from my active shell layers: > Thobut if you've an open-weave fleece on as your insulation there'll be plenty of times you need to faff about with an extra layer on top to windproof it which you just don't need if your wind layer is already there. But if you just want a bit of 'dry' warmth that a fleece (or micropile) can provide, if you're wearing a shelled micropile, you can't remove the wind resistant layer; the classic problem with soft shells lacking the versatility of individual layers. Comparing fleece and synthetic water-retention properties, I reckon they'll be very similar, depending on the fleece, and the particular wadding. Both are relatively open in physical structure, and can absorb water, but, at the same time, will drain water fairly well, given a shake. I suspect that the ability of a fleece to be used as a towel is simply mechanical, effectively scraping water off your skin. If it were down to capillary action, the the tighter-structured Ultrafleece ought to work better. I don't find either particularly effective as a towel, other than to rub excess moisture off; a 'proper towel' relies on capillary absorption to pull water off the surface of the skin, and the structures in fleece and syntetic insulation are too big to support much capillary force. > Buffalo works on the principle that you'll be warm even if you're wet, not that you'll be dry. Buffalo (and micropile) works on the same principle as Paramo, but in reverse; water is pulled into the pile, away from the skin, by capillary action, which keeps the water away from the skin, making you feel drier than you are, and providing an insulating, water-free gap between your body and the reservoir of water in the pile. It's why a damp micropile feels warm soon after putting it on.
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But if you just want a bit of 'dry' warmth that a fleece (or micropile) can provide, if you're wearing a shelled micropile, you can't remove the wind resistant layer; the classic problem with soft shells lacking the versatility of individual layers. While on the one hand that is quite so in theory, and why I avoided shelled fleece for a long while, in practice I find my Microtherm is more useful than my plain fleece. I don't think synthetic insulation is good for active use for me I can't say I'm keen enough to go and invest in any for me either, but that is more from a standpoint of not really needing anything technical at the mo while the family grow up a bit plus I'm happy enough with what I've got anyway. But I can see legitimite uses for it if you want to cut grammes. Pete.
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 If i get my 100 weight fleece soaked, a quick wring out and it's good to go. I don't know if a synthetic insulation will handle that? Never tried it, as i would be afraid of damaging the structure of the insulation. Fleece for active use for me, and synthetic (or down) for static use only.
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> While on the one hand that is quite so in theory [...] in practice My practice comes from: Montane Krypton Patagonia Stretch Zephur ME Microtherm jacket mk1 ME Microtherm Mountain jacket mk1 Montane Transactive Rab VR Trail and lord knows how many 100 weight fleeces and windshirts... Sad, I know, but true...
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Well the current TGO wouldn't mention issues with breathability because he's not trying to use them as a primary midlayer If you're throwing it on on top of everything (as per design really) then it hardly matters if it traps a bit of sweat, as its sort of sacrifical to the rain etc anyhow and its the things under it you really want to keep dry. And you're only using it when cold! To be clear I think they're very useful for that, as well as the obvious rest breaks, at camp etc. Just not as a fleece replacement. The technical stuff doesn't bother me too much there actually, its the (significant!) loss of durability over fleece which annoys me when its promoted as such. And people have been doing so. Very hard to wring out a synthetic isn't it? Its a windproof bag so if it does get horribly saturated quite hard. Shouldn't happen often that of course.
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| Edited: 23/09/11 16:15 |
If you're throwing it on on top of everything (as per design really) Something like the Spark doesn't strike me as designed for throwing it on over the top of everything. Very hard to wring out a synthetic isn't it? Don't know TBH, haven't tried. Its a windproof bag Only if it's a waterproof one can I see there being a particular issue from the covering. its the (significant!) loss of durability over fleece which annoys me when its promoted as such I think it's a negative aspect, definitely, and would be something that puts me off, but there again how many people round here actually wear much stuff out, as opposed to buy something else that's New! and Improved! long before the last thing has died? And is anyone round here ready to sacrifice some durability in order to save some grammes? "Not many" and "quite a few" respectively, I would think... Pete.
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Well I'm happy sacrificing weight for durability on things I'll be mostly carrying but on things I'm just going to be wearing?!!? cf the spark I do slightly wonder about the warmth/weight benefits of a 40g/m2 fill over fleece. Haglofs have a 170g fleece vest (with a small pocket) in ~160g/m2 fleece. Maybe the insulation is efficient enough to overcome the 4-1 weight difference, but I rather doubt if it'll be a dramatic effect. Not that the spark is rubbish - if nothing else its probably a very effective piece of travel clothing.
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 I recently bought some synthetic fill salopettes from TKMaxx that were nominally made for sailing but looked very suitable for winter outdoors use to me. One design choice I found interesting was that at the ankles the last inch or so of lining material was replaced by a woven mesh. I suppose the idea it to let out water that drains down the legs (presumably a considerable problem for winter sailing). Having washed my PL jacket several times you can definitely feel water accumulating at the bottom seams when you hang it up to dry so perhaps this is a bright idea.
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Well I'm happy sacrificing weight for durability on things I'll be mostly carrying but on things I'm just going to be wearing?!!? But if you're mostly wearing it you won't be compressing it a lot so it should last a lot longer...
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But the face fabric is still vunerable and its also just not as good in use and mostly more expensive to start with
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 depends on the layer. my paramo stuff looks untouched despite being worn a lot. as do my montane synthetics - barring the barbed wire snag. gilets i wear either all the time or for extra warmth at chilly times of the day - depends on the weather. synthetics do dry quickly in the wind if they're wet whilst keeping you warm which a fleece won't. cf the spark. shouldn't you be consdering the warmth/weight benefits of a fleece and windshirt to compare like with like?
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Not really, because you'll have that windshirt anyhow (and certainly a shell) and that'll certainly fit over an extra microfleece vest. cf warmth, I've actually remembered that there are some clo values from BPL: Microfleece =0.3, Thermawrap (50g/m2) = 0.48 so this 40g/m2 here logically ~0.4. Once you factor in compression losses its very similar warmth wise. The reason to get the spark would be if you wanted to be able to throw it on over your (wind)shell for warmth on the move if the weather turned nasty. If we're talking base layer + summer weight/fitting shell thats neither implausible or useless. You might want a little more punch for that though. Of course for travel purposes you're much less likely to have a wind shirt and it becomes potentially rather relevant! Myself suspect I'd take an extra mildly thermal synthetic base layer over either for the dual use
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i wear a gilet in winter over a fleece (a paramo "fleece" jacket). because i use gilets a lot i see them, and synthetic jackets, as rather more than just something that has a warmth factor and are better as an all round and versatile garment than a fleece and a windproof separately simply because they are worn all the time.
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 I wonder what Jorseff decided in the end. Probably to take up a less complicated hobby 
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