I thought folk should be aware of the following statement from Meindl UK in the shape of Bramwell International the UK importer and distributor of Meindl boots.
Having purchased a pair of Borneos in April I eventually had to return them to the shop as they were leaking. The first couple of times it happened I put it down to the fact that I was wearing trackie bottoms and no gaiters. The third time I walked the dog locally though wet grass and heather and after an hour both feet were wet.
I returned the boots to Hill and Dale, Burnley Road, Halifax, who, despite my legal rights, insisted on returning them to the wholesaler. After “extensive testing” the boots were pronounced fine and returned with some very patronising advice on how to wax boots. The wholesaler also waxed them. A few days later I set off from Wasdale Head in the Lakes in wet weather. By the time I reached Black Sail pass (about two hours at my pace these days) I had wet feet.
I went back to the retailer who refused to exchange the boots or refund my money so in desperation I phoned the wholesaler who agreed to consider the situation. Interestingly they confirmed that the extensive testing involved sitting my boots in a bucket of water.
Walkers beware! Bramwell International has now confirmed that only Meindl boots with a GTX lining are guaranteed waterproof. Having been a walker for 51 years I understand that no leather boots are guaranteed waterproof. I know how to care for boots and the Borneos were properly treated with Nikwax which I have again used for years. Obviously I know that after a really prolonged soaking over several days most boots will eventually ship some water but properly treated leather boots are, to all extents and purposes, effectively waterproof. What I don’t expect is for a pair of new boots to leak after an hours walk locally with the dog in rain and through wet grass and heather.Neither can I risk such boots in the Lakes.
Sadly as neither the retailer or the wholesaler will deliver any decent customer care I’m on my way to the small claims court. But not in those boots…on the other hand (or should that be foot).
that's a shame john. have you treated all the seams with proper wax (the gunky stuff in tins) and melted it in with a hairdryer? and then repeated the process? it's the only way i know of sealing the seams which is where water comes in.
you are confused as to your "legal rights" as are many people. if you return something as faulty is is up to the retailer to prove that it is not - their legal part of this contract. the retailer returning it to the manufacturer for testing is not unreasonable, unless you expect all shoe sellers to have shoe testing equipment to hand, and is perfectly "legal". retailers who do not do this are simply providing a better service than they are actually legally required to do and has nothing to do with anyone's perception of what they think their "legal rights" are. sitting boots in a bowl of water sounds like a reasonable test especially for boots that aren't made or sold as waterproof.
the manufacturer has pronounced their non-waterproof boots to be up their specification and yet your gripe is that their non-waterproof boots should be waterproof. they're not according to the manufacturers specification nor are from leaving the factory. the fact that user after treatment of the seams can make them effectively waterproof, or not, is entirely up to the user.
good luck at the small claims court. i would suggest you find out what your rights actually are though rather than relying on an annoyed non caveat emptor moment of a bad decision or inappropriate treatment.
I think 'Parky Again' is entirely correct in what he says. I think the only grounds you could have in small claims court would be if they have been mis-sold to you.
I would make sure you print a copy of that out. To quote them:
"IMPORTANT: This is a leather lined boot, not Gore-Tex lined, and as such cannot be termed waterproof, although it is highly water resistant. Many people feel leather lined boots offer a greater level of comfort and breathability over Gore Tex boots, but more care needs to be taken proofing and waxing the boot to ensure water resistance. The Borneo is one of Meindl's best selling boots."
Now, I would think it depends how badly the boots leak. If it's quick and catastrophic then I'd think you may have grounds, as the description suggests some level of water resistance. If it's slow and gradual, and not easily demonstrated then I don't think you'd have any chance in small claims court as that could still be termed to be "highly water resistant".
The other way would be if they were described as 'waterproof' or you were assured that they would keep your feet dry by the staff in the shop (though of course even if they had, there's no way of proving that).
I'm not a lawyer though, nor do I have any qualifications in the law. I actually work for another outdoors shop. This is just my understanding of it from modules in retail courses and my own reading.
From my experience, sending back to the manufacturer is pretty much standard practice I'm afraid, not for all brands but normally for the expensive ones.
Please bear in mind as well that they may not have meant to sound patronising, I think sometimes I can sound it, but it's sometimes it's hard to judge how much you need to explain something, especially when I've heard people discuss the best microwave wattage to dry leather boots.....
You may find small claims court surprisingly informal, the one time I've attended (to do with a holiday contract) it was in a room that looked just like a class room, and the judge seemed fair, patient and it wasn't a bad afternoon really. It would have been nicer if we'd won, but it was certainly an interesting day out..
Interestingly they confirmed that the extensive testing involved sitting my boots in a bucket of water.
Actually not a bad test for waterproofing because it's reproducible and gets rid of a lot of variables like water wicking down your socks. It should give enough feedback to tell whther your boots suffered from a clear fault as long as they were sat there for a decent amount of time. TBH I'd never expect dry feet walking in wet grass (unless it was quite short) unless I was in wellies or wearing gaiters because socks get wet and the water works its way down them.
It's a shame you're not happy, but I'd echo concerns about being very sure of your rights before you stand up in a small-claims court.
Take heed of Parky and Tim - frankly, I dont think you have a snowflake in hells chance in a small claims court.
To have a chance, you need to prove that
The boots were not fit for purpose
and/or
that the retailer was in breach of contract
and
you gave them reasonable chance to put things right, and they failed to do so.
Basically, you will have had to have asked (and remember who you asked) the question - are these boots guaranteed waterproof? You then need to remember the answer given to you.
If the answer was Yes, then that is part of the contract, if the answer was No, that is also part of the contract. Given the efforts made by both shop and wholesaler, I think you will struggle to show unfit for use..you might, but I think not.
Thanks for the advice chaps. I'm aware of my legal rights and I did read the stuff on the Hill and Dale web-site. I've been walking for 51 years (with rest breaks) and have never experienced leaky boots before except in the very early days when we all wore second-hand Army boots buttered with dubbin. I know that leather boots are not guaranteed waterproof.
In the end it comes down to what is a reasonable expectation of a pair of leather boots. Is it reasonable to get wet feet in the time it takes to walk from Wasdale Head to Black Sail pass. My view: that is not reasonable. If I'd wanted guaranteed waterproof I'd have bought wellies. I think it's reasonable to expect that a pair of quality leather boots, properly waxed, should at least stand up to a day out in the rigours of the usual British summer's day - fairly nippy and pretty wet. As for walking through wet grass I was wearing Paramo pants so no water got in the top of the boots (and, by the way, that is gear that is bomb-proof).
The real gripe is that whatever the outcome of any legal action or whatever I'm left with a pair of boots that I can't trust so that I'm going to have to shell out for another pair so that I can get out in all weather in the coming weeks. These were my third pair of Meindl boots but I won't buy Meindl again. The libel laws prevent me from saying much else about Hill and Dale.
Once again thanks for the advice. And Parky Again...caveat emptor!! Ah! Latin...speak little else round my way.
Your legal right is to complain and to get back to either where you should be or where you started from (so money back or new boots) as long as you have a reasonable case and win the argument.
TBH...nothing you have said convinces me you have any case against Hill and Dale or the manufacturer...nor have you proved, in any way, that Hill and Dale or the manufacturer have done anything wrong. My advice - based on this - is that you should go to Citizens Advice and discuss your case with them.. If they say...go for it...then go for it. I suspect they will tell you to stop moaning and melt wax into the seams.
(By the way...I used to be a farmer, I can tell you, from experience, wet grass will challenge any footwear, including wellies, if the grass is long enough)
The boot wax that comes in tins/jars. Smear over seams and melt.
Put some into an eggcup, place in hot water to melt and if feeling brave you can use a syringe for really accurate application - not essential but fun if you like that sort of thing.
Beeswax melted into some sprit and applied would prabably work - the spirit (turps) allows it to creep into all the nooks and crannies.
Not sure - think the proprietory boot waxes are a blend of different waxes and oils so that, even when the wax has cooled and gone solid it still has a certain flex - so it can expand/contract with boot leather with walking and even with warming/cooling.
My experience of beeswax (as a physics teacher) is - certainly at cooler temperatures - it goes quite hard and brittle so I think it may just crack away and fall out with walking. I am also unsure if I would put turps (natural or synthetic) anywhere near leather.
Another way to put it on is to rub in well with finger tips (to avoid proofing your fingers use a surgical glove) then go over the boot again with a hairdryer. You will be amazed as to how much disappears into seams and stitching - and its rather interesting to observe capillary effects in the stitching first time as the was is drawn deep into the seams.
Good point gof. I was using a furniture polish "recipe" i saw on a country house programme yonks ago - it'll make furnture shine anyway. I would imagine there will be recipe on t'interweb somewhere. First time i did the hairdryer job (i suspect it was what happens if i do this coz these boots leak) i was surprised at how much disapeared into the seams. Works on everthing - great for alongwhere the upper meets the soles on shoes.
Shoe polish applied with a damp to wet cloth in a circular motion afterwards makes for a pleasing finish.
First time I saw the hairdryer trick I was having a brew with a mate...discussing a trip to Scotland. He was lobbing on a stonking thick layer of wax (? I thought) then got the hairdryer out (? again) and in five minutes the lot had been sucked into seams, stitches and leather with a nice smooth slightly polished finish. I now do this on my "winter" boots preseason - they are a bit old, frayed and cracked (like me) but stay reasonably dry given TLC
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