Gear

Not if its a softshell.

I have a few OTH micro fleeces bought for me over a few Xmas's. Craghoppers x 2, Technicals and other one. Every single one of them lets wind blow straight through them making me cold if worn without something over the top. Hence softshell is better even if not 100% windproof. Still good cheap sweater for indoors I guess.

Lost in Lancashire wrote (see)

Kish - Trust me it would get ruined. I work in a dusty environment where there are fibres around.

And casual use too. My current one is work and play except not for playing in the hills. It is also a little too thin. You can use a good fleece in many places you know, It is basically for almost everywhere but the hills if you want to look at it like that. I have my favourites for the hills and since I am conscious that energetic activity can result in sweating I prefer not to use my hill fleeces / softshells for activities that you might be in more enclosed places (work, pubs, shops) in case they did have certain aromas not conducive to social or work situations.

Perhaps that is clearer Mike. Do you have any ideas now?

No idea. I can't see the point of softshells.

So you don't want a fleece?

> So you don't want a fleece?

Not as the rest of the world calls fleece; no, I don't think so...

LiL has called his Dynamo a fleece in the past, which caused me confusion at the time.  It seems he's still using the term 'fleece' to refer to a soft shell...  I think I took that into consideration when replying this time...

Or maybe just wind resistant fleece OK? That exists of course.

In some ways I'd call the nylon faced power stretch ideal - mildly wind resistant, very comfortable and a very 'normal' looking finish. Haglofs did some very basic pullovers last year, still about - here and here.  Very long arms and I'd call the minimal zips/pockets an advantage in context.

Or wind pro style stuff for a bit more wind resistance cf: this, this, this and probably others. Or even just an old school Karisma smock from hilltrek made to measure?

Of course non of this is super cheap so if it is going to get trashed by fibres then goodness knows. Otherwise they should last for an insane length of time.

Softshell is still a class of fleece in many cases. Take the old windstoppers and windbloc from old they were called windproof fleeces. The newer "softshell" windstoppers are still the same basic technology and the powershield with the perforated membrane (IIRC) is just an advancement on the original membrane technology so if you want to be semantic the softshell is a modern term for windproof or wind resistant fleeces. The exception being the two later VR style. I am not sure what you'd call that although the innner layer on some of these are a fleece type of layer. Either way it is semantics as I have described the use and the preference for wind resistance I believe. If you want to call that softshell and not fleece then that is ok.

Thanks for the links Martin, I will work my way through them.

The dyno/dynamo that I wear now for this use was sold to me as a fleece. It is the original version of the Montane lightweight, wind resistance fleece / softshell (if you like that phrase). Probably 10 or more years old now. Bought from George Fisher in Keswick and described as a softshell fleece in the tags IIRC. The second incarnation of this jacket I also got in the sales for £32.50 from Outdoor Warehouse and was in Pertex Equilibrium. Of course by then I guess the fleece component was droppeddue to fashion for just using the softshell term. However I do question it's use personally as it is not that weather resistant apart from wind. For me a shell is more resistant such as a hard shell waterproof or the more modern hardface softshell with membranes that do resist water ingress for a reasonable length of time. This kind of purely tightly woven material with a gradient to the density of the weave (probably not the correct terms used here) is not that water resistant. Especially so as even the best DWR I've encountered does not last that long. Renewing it is needed really but it never IME gets back to that straight out of the shop performance.

Anyway that is my thoughts on fleece/softshell naming issue since it has been brought up.

Thanks for everyone's help, suggestions and advice.

> Softshell is still a class of fleece in many cases.

Agreed; a shelled, or hard-faced fleece.

Then we're into the domain of group theory, sets and Venn diagrams; whilst all members of the set 'humans' are members of the set 'mammals', not all members of the set 'mammals' are humans.  Similarly, although some members of the set 'soft shell' are members of the set 'fleece', not all members of the set 'fleece' are members of the set 'soft shell'...

captain paranoia wrote (see)

Then we're into the domain of group theory, sets and Venn diagrams

;-)

Nothing quite so ethereal. What you're mostly in is the domain of marketing.

"Will it sell better if we call it soft shell? Then it is soft shell."

Edit: There's also "Can we charge more for it if we call it soft shell?" which is also a popular means of determining appropriate terminology.

I think you are right that outdoor gear terminology is often about the marketing.

Most softshells are a fleece in some form. SOme have two  layers of a fleece with a membrane between others have a different structure to them but fleece is still applicableunless you want to use the more marketable softshell tag. Either way I have explained what I want a few times using phrases like "I'm guessing I need at least a wind resistant top too" and "Personally I often get caught out in fleeces in rain and windy weather (well North Lancs and Lakes does get wet aand windy weather). That is why I don't want a simple 200 weight fleece. Something more technical I suppose.". Also saying I'd prefer a more casual look to wear to pub round town and the like.

All in all the tagline on the swing tags is not as important as how it performs. Windproof/resistant fleece or softshell or shelled fleece / lined windshirt. They all provide warmth, wind resistance and the right one can look ok in town or going to the pub. I think I've seen better discussions on the softshell name before, quite possibly from Jon or someone in a mag like Trail or TGO. A lot of people think it is not really meaningfull. Ultimately there are softshells out there with a membrane and taped too that are waterproof too. These are effectively a hard shell with the outer faces being a soft fleece I suppose which are truly a shell garment.

BTW someone said that the terms used for outdoor gear would make a good sociology research topic. Something about how we relate to the terms and phrasing used. Guess softshell is one of those that would interest someone doing that. It has a meaning that is different to different people.

What about a donkey jacket?

Fairly windproof, good for work and pub, and a donkey is a mammal.

> and a donkey is a mammal.

Don't be foolish, Mike; donkeys have hair, not fleeces...

> I think I've seen better discussions on the softshell name before, quite possibly from Jon or someone in a mag like Trail or TGO.

Well, here's my review of the four main types of soft shell.

> Most softshells are a fleece in some form.

I'm a terrible pedant, LiL, and your thread title asks for a 'fleece'.  My original response to your OP took into account your expanded requirements, understanding what you were after.  But, as I said, I can be a terrible pedant, too, hence the lesson in group theory and semantics...