Hi i was just wondering if i could get some advice. I am going on a winter skills course in scotland in february and need to buy some winter boots/crampons.Could somebody tell me if scarpa m4s together with grivel G12s is a good combination and suitable for ice-climbing? At what stage do you need to use C3 grade?
G12 and manta M4s are a fine combination for winter walking, but if you're thinking of ice climbing as well then I'd consider upgrading to the G14. The majority of OMers on last years winter skills courses wore G12s or 14s, so should be ideal. C3's aren't really needed till well up in the Scottish grades ( above 5?) and are better suited to vertical ice walls paired with plastic bots.
Used exactly that - M4s & G12s earlier this year for a winter skills course, and they were a great combination for walking and an intro to ice climbing. Though, as Dave says, I'm considering getting some G14s so I can do some more substantial climbing.
Thanks very much guys.Sorry if i appear ignorant but what do G14s offer that G12s dont, meaning that they are more suitable for climbing? Are the 14s compatible with the M4s? If i intend to graduate onto the higher grades(which i do)would i be better off buying the 14s in the first place and using them on the skills weekend?
The obvious difference is that the 14s have 14 points as opposed to 12, but the real difference is that the front two horizontal points are cast rather than pressed out of the metal, giving increased strength.
Should still be compatible with M4s (Scarpa & Grivel work together on the designs) but as with all crampons, you should really take your boots into the shop to ensure they fit properly.
The two extra points are also removable, replaceable and can be set according to how you want them (eg. change of angle, change of distance apart, mono-point etc). I'd recommend going straight for G14s if you're going onto higher grades. I totally agree with Darren that you should always take your boots to where you get your crampons to be certain, but I've never known of a G14/M4 combination having a problem.
I would say that a 12 point articulated crampon such as the G12 is pretty much ideal for winter walking and mountaineering. It is only if you are graduating onto near vertical ice routes that you need worry about your G12s not being man enough for the job. At that point you might want to change your boots too!
Basically the main advanatges of the G14 over a G12 are that there are more front points (good for very steep ice) and the points are replaceable and can be set up as mono points etc, also the front points re vertical (I think) which can be an advantage on more technical climbs.
The disadvantages as I see them would be the extra weight and cost, the vertical front points for softer snow and more parts to fall off!
Bascially it's horses for courses, the G14 are more technical, the G12 arguably a better all rounder. I have only done low grade winter routes so haven't tackled near vertical sections of ice so haven't hit anything I didn't feel cofortable in my 12 point crampons. Personally I supsect I would be more interested in first getting stiffer boots rather than 14 point crapons if I went to higher winter grades.
But I am sure others will have more experience than me.
NUTS & BOLTS: The genuine all-round performer, able to handle everything from grade VI ice, VIII mixed, Alpine North Faces, high altitude 'walking' and anything else that requires spiky shoes.
EXAMPLES: Petzl-Charlet Vasak (830g) and Sarken (850g), Grivel G12 (950g), Black Diamond Sabre Tooth (965g), Camp Ice Rider (880g), DMM Gladiator (860g) (right) and Aiguille (850g), Mountain Technology 12 point (1,000g), Cassin C12 (950g). PROS: If you've got these on your feet you should be able to get up most things. They are tough enough to stand up to seasons of abuse and, although not the lightest crampons, they aren't the heaviest and so won't weigh too heavily on your feet when the air's thin. They won't ball up in most conditions and are easy to walk in and will fit on B2 and B3 boots easily and B1 boots for short periods (such as crossing glaciers). CONS: Non replaceable front points so once they wear out you'd need to buy a whole new set, plus you can't set them up as mono points. Horizontal points aren't as effective on pure ice as vertical points, meaning they can feel less secure on steep icefalls. C2 SUMMARY: Probably the crampon that 90% of us should own as it covers all the bases well.
C2+ CRAMPON NUTS & BOLTS: The technical C2 crampon, designed to bridge the gap between the rigid technical and the trad 12-point crampon. EXAMPLES: Black Diamond Bionic (1,200g), Grivel G14 (1,065g), Petzl Charlet M10 (1,050g) and non modular Dartwin (850g), Cassin C14 (1,100g), Simond Pitbull (1,067g), Camp Vector (1,100g). PROS: All models (apart from the Dartwin), offer the user the ability to either replace worn front points (or you can have a mixed set and an ice set for example), or switch between mono and dual points. The point arrangements and design is aimed to give maximum climbing performance on both rock and ice. The two piece non-rigid design means these crampons can also be used for general mountaineering, with the better designs giving a good resistance to balling up even without anti balling plates. CONS: Heavier than a plain C2 and more expensive (offset by the fact that you can replace worn front points). Some models ball up as badly as a C3 crampons, requiring anti balling plates. C2+ SUMMARY: Very much down to the actual crampon itself, with some models being better than others, but I think the C2+ replaces the older C3 concept for most UK users and is probably the way to go for those who don't mind paying an extra £30 and carrying a couple more hundred grams of steel.
Ok thats brilliant thanks very much guys. I think i'll probably start off with the G12s and then see how i go.I guess if i do go onto the vertical stuff which is my intention, i could upgrade then and maybe sell my older kit. One last thing do any of you have any experience of using Alpine-guides.com? That is who we are thinking of using. Thanks again for all your advice.
Erm Dave's been busying organising Winter Skills courses again for next February / March so if there are places left, that might be the cheaper option.
It's a fantastic course and great fun... I did it last year and am now planning to to the winter climbing one this year.
Yes there are places left:) I'll give an update on the Feb/March Winter Skills and Winter Climbing courses on 23rd August and will be making bookings shortly after to make sure we get the accomodation and book the snow in time again :)
I'd like to do a winter skills course, but only have Scarpa M3s, which, I'm told, only take flexible crampons. Is that adequate? Someone told me that it would be very tiring using such a flexible boot on ice. On the other hand, I've used them without crampons on foot-deep snow in the Lakes, and I thought they did rather well. I don't think I can justify owning M3s and M4s!
I would have thought you would be fine wearing SL's with a flexible crampons.
A mate of mine climbed a grade 1 winter climb with a pair of HiTec BO grade boots that were like trainers and strap ons (not that I am recommending that!) and was okay. And another mate has done alpine peaks with Salomon ProTreks and some straps ons.
SLs are B1 rated, although if you have mammoth feet they could be quite flexible - I think the grades are for size 8 feet. Mind you the grades are only one person's view and ultimately it is up to you to decide how secure you think you will feel.
I would say that the combo you described would be fine - possibly ideal? - for a winter skills course, if not necessarily for winter climbing.
