 john, i got a mixed box from Funky Raw you can get boxes cheaper but this were the only place that did a mixed one of 16 bars. ordering individual ones was not postage friendly. not impressed with the cinnamon one; but i'm not a great fan of the flavour. the others are very pleasant. i like them because they are not sweet.
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some cracking views on here. The comment about buffalo/pertex is a good one as ive a trax jacket that ive used with nothing underneath in -5 weather and it does work. I carry a thin tee for the pub stops as i just pop it off and put tee shirt on, and then reverse to go out in the elements. The jacket does wick away the moisture leaving you feeling warm and comfortable. My mate has the Mardale fleece liner and is hooked. (no good for cameras and maps though pete) 
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John Burley:
The calculations and comments in your post of 17/10/08 at 1027 are most interesting! I think it must be the first time in my life that I've been described as 'cool'.
I get the impression that you are in some way professionally involved in nutrition or the biology of the human body so I'll run this past you.
I have observed that it is impossible to lay down hard and fast rules as to what should be worn on the hill because we don't all come out of the same mould. For example, Chris Townsend has stated that he dislikes Gore-Tex lined footwear because they make his feet too hot. I, on the other hand, won't buy a pair of boots unless they are lined with Gore-Tex or eVent. My feet do not get hot even if I wear SealSkinz.
To take this a stage further. I distrust many of the sweeping statements made about food and drink. We are often told that we should drink eight glasses (approx 4 pints) of water per day to maintain good health and to keep the body functioning efficiently. Some authorities go further and state that the four pints should be in addition to our normal fluid intake. When at home I drink great quantities of tea (usually at least nine pints). Yet when I go for a long walk I will drink three pints of tea at home and then nothing until lunchtime when I have a pint of weak bitter shandy (one quarter beer). Unless it is very hot I often do not drink again until I return home. One of the important tests to check for dehydration is to note the colour of your urine. Mine is always a very pale straw colour and I never suffer from the other symptoms such as an inability to concentrate, giddiness and a general fuzziness and lack of well-being.
Recently, a professional dietician told me that it was impossible for the human body to function properly unless provided with suitable food every ninety minutes. Yet, when backpacking I strike camp, drink a little water and then walk five miles before stopping for breakfast.
We are told that tea should be avoided because it is a diuretic. Three years ago I conducted some experiments on myself during which time I took no significant exercise. For a week I followed my normal eating and drinking regimen and measured and recorded my total fluid intake. I also measured and recorded the amount and time that I peed. The following week, I substituted water for my normal tea intake and kept the same records. The results were fascinating. The amount and timing of peeing during the experiment were virtually identical for the two weeks. This proves nothing, but it indicates that tea does not have any diuretic effects on MY body. I suspect that it also confirms that the so-called rules do not necessarily apply to everyone.
I'm aware that my experiments are likely to cause mirth among those OMers with an infantile sense of humour so please bear in mind that I'm reporting the results to further a serious discussion.
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 I don't find tea a diuretic either Hugh. I can drink half a dozen mugs of tea before bed, and i don't have to get up during the night for a pee. Another 'holy cow' is that alcohol should be avoided on the hill in cold weather. I've read that a small amount can actually help prevent frostbite, by opening up the blood vessels, and increasing blood flow to the extremities. As you say, it's what works for you. Make up your own mind.
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We are often told that we should drink eight glasses (approx 4 pints) per day... and I never suffer from the other symptoms such as an inability to concentrate, giddiness and a general fuzziness and lack of well-being...
Whoa... after three pints i am hammered.
Sorry Hugh, couldn't resist
I'm aware that my experiments are likely to cause mirth among those OMers with an infantile sense of humour so please bear in mind that I'm reporting the results to further a serious discussion.
Thats Ed's job that is
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Been reading your posts, Have you not lost the thread? Guaranteed to Keep You Dry - Don't Talk Wet
Three years I bought a Mountain Equipment Kongur Gortex Jacket, since then I have had it replaced on four separate occasions. I have had two XCR jackets and now two of their latest pro shell ones All have the same problem, that is that the pockets fill with water and gradually leak into the inside of the jacket. So far I have rendered useless one digital camera and two mobile phones.
Christmas before last I returned the jacket together with a letter to the Managing Director of Mountain Equipment describing what was wrong with the jacket, whilst the jacket was replaced I never got a reply offering an apology or advising what they intended to do about the situation. Again the new jacket failed to perform.
I often like to go on multi day backpacking trips camping overnight, sadly with this jacket you would be at serious risk of hypothermia. I wore my latest version on Mickle Fell this Saturday (4th of Oct 08) the weather was dreadful in the end we were only out a few hours but again I was soaked.
How on earth this jacket gets 50/50 in the "Ultimate Waterproof" test in a well known outdoor magazine beggar's belief. Who does the gear testing either for Mountain Equipment or for the magazine? They obviously do not go out in the rain.
When you consider the cost of £260 against the poor people who manufacture the gear on a dollar a day and that the cost of this jacket probably represents a weeks wage to the retail staff selling them I feel aggrieved that the jacket in essence represents extremely poor value for money.
In conclusion this jacket is not worth the price tag, rating 0/5
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 Hugh,
I think I have probably discussed just about all of your very intresting observations at some point on OM. I'll do some digging to see if I can find my 'stock' answers - as all your questions are valid ones and demonstrate how much dogma there is in advice given for safety and performance in the outdoors. I have a small amount of academic training in physiology and have continued to inform myself purely for my own satisfaction. Actually I started a science thread for such questions...
http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/forummessages/mps/UTN/19119/URN/5/dt/4/srchdte/0/cp/1/v/8/sp/
Perhaps this would be the best place for us to discuss your ideas - you could re-post your last addition so as to allow this thread to stay on topic.
Peter,
I am sure you are right that we are veering off subject but not without drawing a lot of attention to our beliefs that the claims of W L Gore and associates are misleading. Copy-pasting the original post doesn't add to much to the discussion really...
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Hugh,
I had a stab at the diuretic question here:
http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/forummessages/mps/dt/4/UTN/18481/
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John: <> Thank you for your advice - I missed the threads to which you have directed me. They are helpful and informative but they all seem to stop abruptly, apparently before the subjects were exhausted. I'm not sure what I should do now. Is it worth resurrecting the thread entitled 'The science bit'? if I copied my post to this thread to 'The science bit' would I be violating any OM etiquette?
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Of course not, Hugh... I don't feel qualified to judge on OM etiquette but it strikes me that to move a post into a more general thread is GOOD etiquette as it allows the original post to stay on topic and we can give more consideration to your questions.
Go ahead and copy! And I'll see what I can do to fill in some of the unanswered bits,
John
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Thanks, John - it's now been posted n the correct place. Aplogies to those who felt I was going off-subject!
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Are we to beleive then that paramo is better than goretex to keep you dry and comfortable in the hills  ?
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Are we to beleive then that paramo is better than goretex to keep you dry and comfortable in the hills?
In winter, yes.
E-vent is good too.
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I find that Páramo performs better than Gore-Tex in most weather conditions in the UK unless it is an exceptionally hot and humid day.Others find Páramo too hot in most conditions! it all depends on your metabolism.
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 For Some Values Of... "comfortable" or "excpetionally hot" or "dry" etc. I gave away my old Paramo Nevada as I found it so hot as to be uncomfortable more often than not, throughout the year. I'm considering getting another of the more recent, cooler Paramos... for ski touring, in temperatures around or below zero degrees. See recent threads here for Paramo being simply overcome in exceptionally heavy rain: those folk certainly weren't drier on that occasion. Pete.
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Funny enough this thread has nothing to do with paramo
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 Funnily enough, forum threads mutate. Get over it.
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