Just seen the tower ridge 'scramble' in your weekly routes, I agree with what you say that TR is one of the best climbs in Britain, having only ever done it in winter so I cannot comment on the grade in summer.
However my guidebooks give it diff, I think In the past I have seen it graded V diff.
Can you please clarify what is currently the boundary between scrambling & climbing, lest in a couple of years we may all be doing scrambles with 5b & 5c, maybe even 6a pitch's on them. (english that is)
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 Kit,
Grading scrambles is a nightmare. One man's grade 4 is another man's grade 2 - and both grades are a climber's stroll. Wherever possible I go with the conventional grading given to scrambles that have previously been published.
Tower Ridge is universally graded as a Scottish grade 5 (English and Welsh only grade from 1 to 3) in all the publications I've seen.
As for where the boundary is between scrambling and rock climbing - that's almost impossible to given an objective answer that applies to everyone. The tradition crossover point lies around the diff/v diff climbing grade - but climbing grades tend to lower over time, while the standard of scrambles rarely changes. To many a scramble becomes a climb where the majority of the route has to be undertaken roped and using protection. In some ways I find it easier to think of a route that marks the limit of scrambling rather than a figure - and to me personally Tower Ridge is that limit. As I said in the description, this marks the transition from scrambler to mountaineer.
Obviously this answer can't be definitive to scrambling as a whole, but I hope it helps you understand how I give the routes on here their grades
Dave :)
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Dave,
I think you are on dodgy ground here diffs are rock climbs, they are well documented in all area's by the national governing bodies guidebooks, why change the status.
Tower ridge is universally graded as a diff rock climb and has been included in SMC journals since it was first ascended in 1892.
You say grading scrambles is a nightmare,the reason you are having problems is because are trying to merge scrambles with climbs.
What you are doing is introducing another grading system, if the grades keep creeping up you will end up like the australian system where 19 is approx HVS, 20 E1, 25 is E5.
In this country we already have our own traditional system E6 7a, french sport grades 7a,7b,7c etc.
Then we have bouldering grades-font 7a, 7b, 7c etc.
Ice climbing grades, and dry ice tooling grades.
Now you you are introducing the australian system.
You are adding unnecessary confusion to an already complex issue.
Fast forward to OM 12/05/2015
Did a fantastic (myford)grade 25 scramble on gogarth main cliff last weekend called Positron, best pitch in Wales.
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 cor, proverbial can of worms time
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 Classic Rock has it as a 2000ft Diff. Looking at the pictures in C.R., I wouldn't say it's a scramble. However, Dave is using Scottish scramble grades, whereas English ones only go up to 3s. Not sure if that makes it different or not?
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 will chip in later when I'm home and can confirm my facts before posting incorrectly.
But Cara I will say, what some people used to call climbs are now days considered scrambles. So because it is in classic rock just means it was considered a climb then. I'm not saying it is or isn't at the moment, until I get home as I said and confirm a few things before posting.
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Kit,
"What you are doing is introducing another grading system" - Sorry but you're wrong! Let me quote from Andrew Dempster's Classic Mountain Scrambles In Scotland - "Grade 5: Extremely serious, highly commiting and demanding scrambles consisting mainly of Moderate rock climbing, but with some pitches of a Difficult standard. For highly experienced scramblers only, and preferably those who have some rock climbing experience. A rop0e is highly recommended - even if not used:eg Tower Ridge (Ben Nevis); Main Cuillin Ridge Traverse (Skye). That was written in 1992, so the definition is neither mine nor new!
If you were to remove all graded scrambles that include a section of graded rock climbing there would be hardly any scrambles left. Routes like Clogwyn Y Person Arete include sections graded at Mod - Diff.
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 As I'm only familiar with the English/Welsh scramble grades can you clarify one point for me ? Is a Scottish grade 3 the same as an English/Welsh grade 3 ? In other words are Scottish 4s and 5s extar difficulty levels or is the grading in scotland just divided into finer increments ?
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Bill, in my opinion English/Welsh Grade 3S is roughly equal to Scottish Grade 4, with Grade 5 slightly higher.
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 I always thought it was quite normal for the upper end of scrambling grades to overlap with climbing grades. I haven't got guide books handy here but I'm sure there are things on Idwal Slabs (for example) that are graded as 3S in the scrambling guide and as mods in the CC climbing guide. I thought is was commonly accepted that 3S (or even 3) overlaps with 'mod'?
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WD, yes, you're right. However, Classic Rock was published AFTER the old "Easy" climbing grade was scrapped and those climbs now termed scrambles. In addition, any routes which have been regraded since they were first climbed have been noted in Classic Rock. When the book was originally compiled, it was to cover grades up to Severe. Little notes after each route show the current grade, some of which are now as high as VS. However, Tower Ridge has NOT been up- or down-graded since its original grading :)
I'd agree with Cath that 3 or 3s can overlap with Mod, and MAYBE Diff, but if the hardest English grade is 3s, and Tower Ridge is higher, as Dave says, surely it should be given the climbing grade of Diff? For English scramblers, it cold otherwise be misleading. Still, as I said, I'm not familiar with Scottish grading, so I may be wrong
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Cheers Dave, thanks for the clarification. I've no experience of Scottish scrambling as I've only beent here in winter. I've always understood that grade 3 Welsh scrambles would be mod climbs and possibly have bits up to diff
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Cara, first of all it's only my personal opinion that Scottish grade 5 is harder than English/Welsh 3S. However, I can confirm that it is also graded as a Diff. In the grading of routes on OM I try to follow the conventional grading as previously published for scrambles - but perhaps where the high end scrambles it would be more helpful if I also put climbing grades where applicable (say for Diff and above)?
Fortunately there won't be anything harder than Tower Ridge to cover in future, but other scrambles such as The Cuillin Ridge and sections of An Teallach Ridge will also be graded 5 with sections that also qualify for a climbing grade.
What I would like to point out is that I deliberately left out the V Diff alternative start that goes over the Douglas Boulder and that there were several references to the fact that this is an extreme route at the highest end of scrambling.
Grading is always going to be a problem - even rock climbers can't agree on their grades half ther time. While Tower Ridge is as hard as scrambling gets I personally know several people who've either/both soloed it or done in as a pair but unroped. In the description, however, I mention that ropes and pro are essential, and provide an accepted escape route before the crux sections.
At the end of the day there will never be a universally accepted, objective, grading methodology - so all I can do is explain the methods I choose for giving the grades I give. After discussion with Jon I will shortly be writing an article on grading scrambles, and in particular how I grade the scrambles published on OM. This article will be linked from all future scrambles to minimise confusion. To be honest though, personally I'd prefer English/Welsh grades and Scottish grades to work to an identical system - perhaps something for the UIAA to look at globally too.
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Agree there Dave :)
A universal system would make it a lot easier to relate to overseas guidebooks etc! Can't see it happening though!
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 I'm not so sure that Andrew Dempster's "Classic Mountain Scrambles In Scotland" is actually the Scottish grading system anyway
Noel Williams' "Scrambles in Lochaber" and "Skye Scrambles" use the normal 1-3 system.
Then of course you've got J. Wilson Parker's "Scrambles in Skye" which is different again!
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 All my scrambling has been in Scotland, and the only time I've ever used a guide book was on Skye, when I used the excellent "Skye Scrambles" book. This is the Noel Williams one, published by the Scottish Mountaineering Club.
It has 3 grades of scramble - then it's climbing grades.
If that's good enough for Skye, why would we need another system?
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Headcammer Productions also use the 1-5 system for scrambles in Glencoe on DVD, but S.Bull doesn't use any grades at all in the Black Cuillin Ridge Scramblers Guide.
Personally I'd be more than happy to use the 1-3(s) system across the board, but that would either rely on my opinion of how a grade 4/5 equates to the 1-3S rating or mean that some routes at the high end get left out alltogether. Interestingly Noel Williams chose not to include Tower Ridge in early editions of Scrambles in Lochaber, but now includes it as a grade 3S. I can't honestly see how a 3s grade for Tower Ridge, with 4,000+ft of sustained exposed scrambling, compares to something like Grey Crag in the Lakes.
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Without wanting to muddy the waters still further, I think there should be some cognisance taken of whether the route is tackled in ascent or descent. I can think of many routes where it would be a whole different ball game if it was one-way only. And that's one of the differences between scrmbling and climbing. The latter tends to be an end in itself - climb to the top via a difficult route and walk back down, whereas scrambling is often required (or enjoyed) as a two-way route.
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Personally I'm quite happy descending grade 1 scrambles and would consider grade 2 routes in descent, but I wouldn't want to descend a grade 3 route. And from what I've read of tower ridge no way would I try to descend it (unless I abseiled it!)
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 Since there are different views of how routes are graded, perhap it would be a simple solution to just mention that. Adding that Tower Ridge is widely regarded as a diff climb is only a few words but adds a lot of clarity for a lot of folk.
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