Not sure if this ones already been discussed, but while i was slowly killing myself over boulders up the Ben on Sat, i felt an eerie feel of competitiveness, people pushing past or running at you, a distinct lack of idle chat and hellos, all of which i feel just makes that day,extra special.
A majority of those were from the 3 peaks challenge crew. With a lot of trusts/communities concerned at ever increasing no.s of inexperienced people attempting feats like these,balanced with forces telling us all to get out there and be a part of it... what are your views on keeping/promoting these type of challenges ?
Erm, it has come up before and it's guaranteed to spark off some furious debate. Bottom line is that people dislike challenge walks for a variety of reasons ranging from them disturbing local people late at night with their minibuses and chatter, through erosion concerns to a more generalised feeling that they're not 'real walkers'.
I'm ambiguous - I don't want to see mountains become coincidental arenas for essentially pointless challenges, but what they heck, they always have been. I'm not that convinced about the erosion qestion since 'real walkers' do quite a lot of that too and I'm not going to knock people for getting off their backsides and getting outside.
I do feel sorry for locals who get woken in the middle of the night by hordes of walkers though and that shouldn't be allowed to happen.
I guess I'd sum my views up by saying don't ban them, but it's about time that some of the organisers started to lace the competitive, do or die stuff, with some education and encouragement to treat other hill users with the courtesy they deserve.
If you're not sure whether something has been discussed, you can always use the Search facility cunningly hidden on the forums front page. The Three Peaks is a well-trodden route round these parts - try this for example.
Hate them. It wouldn't be so bad in smaller groups but each challange has hundreds of people all starting at the same time. Why can't they do something less damaging, like a sponsored fart. BTW I think you'll find the local MTRs aren't that keen on them.
Jon, I put it to you that Stanage, Burbage, etc are "coincidental arenas for essentially pointless challenges", not to mention erosion, loutish hordes, etc. Yet no-one suggests we ban rock climbing on these grounds. Just what is it about these 'Challenges' that gets people's backs up so?
I don't know. I think, to be honest, there's a lot of snobbery about people doing stuff like that not being 'proper' walkers, because maybe it's a one-off thing for a lot of them, though not all by any means.
I reckon a lot of it is just prejudice backed up with rationalisations to justify that prejudice, like saying that Three Peak Challengers spread more litter or cause erosion or are dangerous. To be fair, the Wasdale MRT site mentions passing a load of them dressed in trainers and jeans, then again, they didn't have to rescue any of them.
The only really good reason I can think of is people at the base of Scafell Pike being woken at 3 am by minibus engines, the rest of it, I think is prejudice and snobbery. They might not view the mountains in the same way as the typical outdoors fanatic, but so what?
I don't like London much these days, but I have every right to go there and not be slagged off for not viewing the West End as the centre of the universe, he said, rather tortuously. Live and let live is what I say and if some of them get into the outdoors as a result, then that's great.
Seeing as they are limited to three - often derided - mountains, 3PCs are pretty much harmless. Nevis and Snowdon have made paths geared for the tens (hundreds?) of thousands who climb them each year, so 3P people make no difference to erosion.
I've said before I wouldn't mind a crack at it - after all weren't many people here doing the same thing in principle by attempting the 15 Peaks?
But I can imagine buses and chatting walkers would seriously piss off poeple at Wasdale, 'beris etc. As Jon said more education on consideration -fundemental to the sustainability of many of activities - is needed. I'm sure the likes of Trail (and other popular mags), the BMC (and other popular relevant organisations) and maybe even OM (an other websites) could help here.
I also wonder if sleepy 3PC drivers have caused accidents. It's the main thing which puts off me doing it. Sleep deprivation is causes a large proportion of M-way crashes
I’m sorry but, more people DO cause more erosion (and more noise and more litter when it comes to that). What's wrong with trying to spread the load? To be honest I don't quite feel eloquent enough to argue the case at the moment, but certainly my argument does not include 'snobbery' or 'prejudice'.
Sort of discussion best done over a couple of pints.
Well they do, but then everyone using the hills causes erosion. It's inevitable until you reach the situation on some paths - Pennine Way for example - where great swathes of it have been literally paved over. It's one of those 'wouldn't do it myself, but will defend the right of others to do it' things for me. You could argue that it's better to confine that erosion to a few defined paths which can be restored rather than spreading it all over the shop. Wouldn't do it myself anyway. Seems like a lot of driving for no particular reason and the routes they normally take aren't exaclty dramatic - as alternative Three Peaks combining the CMD Arete on the Ben, Crib Goch on Snowdon and, erm, something halfway interesting on Scafell Pike might be a bit more supportable. Why don't they just stay in the gym and use a stairmaster? Ooops...
The thing is a high number of people using a path at the same time causes more damage than the same number over a period of time. A bit like having sixteen pints in one evening or spreading them out over the week! No I wouldn't ban them (thin edge of the wedge) but I don't have to like them. I have done the 3 peaks (over 4 days) Snowdon via Lliwedd (4 inches of rain that day), The Ben via CMD and Scafell Pike via Piers Gill and Broad Crag. So it's hard not to sound hypocritical, but there again I have the odd cigar but still think smoking 40 a day is bad for you.
It`s interesting to read such a variety of views in such a small space of time.
My own belief is that this question forms part of a broad debate, covering lots of other issues.
Take for example - what`s been said about m-way crashes, then restricting people to times/places brings in the freedom to roam debate, (Save that to another year !). Then there`s the Safety aspect from MRT,(Should insurance companies cough up to help fund organisations if they are called on, like NHS and car crashes ?) and pollution/litter/local residences etc.. Only Sat, there was a team of about 20 taking down the shelter on the Ben and collecting all the rubbish left behind !
If it were decided that there would be a crackdown on events like these, could it go too far and affect Coast to Coast walks , West Highland Way etc.. ???
I stand testament to what Jon said earlier, as ive got into the Outdoors by a mate getting me into the C2C walk and i was inexperienced as much as Joe Bloggs.
So it does bring good points - not to mention the tourism....
I think it's worth stating that you couldn't ban 3PC'ers. Who the hell has the authority and what law is there it could come under?
Plus, as I said, the erosion on Snowdon and Nevis is not a problem as these paths have been paved with stone (cost a fair few million quid too). These paths have been carefully designed and constructed and pretty much solve the problem. I think there are people here who wouldn't go up these 'tourist' paths if you paid them and so don't realise how they are now.
Once you get above a certain number of total users over a long period the actual frequency of walkers makes no difference. The load problem comes when topsoil structure and vegetation is destroyed making surface material prone to erosion, particulary water-rill. Once rills exist surface water flow can be as a big a problem as actual impaction removing finer particles, taking anything a plant could grow in, so there is no chance of a stabilising root structure establishing again. And any plants just get flattened by more walkers or eaten by the bloody sheep anyway. That's why constructed paths having regular drainage channels.
Should say that a friend of mine did a large project at Bangor on upland footpath erosion and management, inlcuding talking to the people at CCW, the SNPA and the various bodies involved in managing the upland paths. I looked over her project and was in the audience for her presentation so to be honest there isn't much I don't know about path erosion!
PS Yet to see anyone answer my point that there is no difference - certainly not in principle - between the 3 Peaks Challenge and the 15 Peaks Challenge. Both are (were) sponsered and both casuse (caused) people to walk where they usually wouldn't, increasing traffic.
Yeah I'd rather 3PC'ers stuck to tourist paths as they can cope with the erosion.
Jon seems to be suggesting people try other routes, but these would be very vulnerable to erosion.
Erosion was used as an argument both for and against the Right to Roam as it would either (a) encourage more people onto the hills worsening erosion or (b) spread people off the most used paths reducing erosion.
I think there should be some sort of consultation with the relavent National Park / MRT to see if there are things which can be done to lessen the impact on the local areas, I know they were complaining a while ago in the Lakes about having several coaches rumbling through the villages at some rediculous time in the morning, they also need to have a few people in any sizeable group to act as leaders, we were once followed over Crinkle Crags and onto Bowfell by a crowd who thought they were doing Scafell for charity, turned out that one person in the group thought he could read a map!
Interesting thread. I thought I would put in my ten pence worth as I work in Wasdale and am a member of the Wasdale MRT.
To me the issue is not one of ban the races or restrict access it is one of responsible use and conservation. You can't stop people from using the fells, god forbid, however having accepted free access for all you then need to manage the use.
The three peaks is not a small problem believe me, the scale of the events is not fully appreciated, but living and woking here you get things into a good perspective, litteraly thousands do the challenge each year, a rough total would be about 6000 people. The problem comes from 2 angles as I can see it. Number one is behavoir and organisation. With the mind set of doing the event in 24 hours, the competitors arrive in Wasdale during the night mainly and when they get here systematicly wake up the residents, campers and B&B guests with noise, cheering, reversing sirens and generally not caring about who the annoy, but hey that's ok becouse it's all for charity. They then proceed to drink the vallies wells dry of fresh water, crap behind every wall and tree becouse there just isn't enough toilets ( mains sewerage not being present), they park whereever is closest and churn up the verges and gree spaces, and then when they leave they gift us all the rubbish they have created so that it can merrily blow all over the valley. And finally for good measure they drive like tits down the valley roads becouse the driver is charged with the task of getting to the next peak in 5mins.
Now, does that sound like responsible use of the National Park? Forget the fact they ignore the paths taking the direct routes instead, forget the erosion of 300 feet in one hours is ten times that of 300 feet over the course of a week, forget the fact that the Brown Tongue path which has been repairing for 10 years is now a ditch once again becouse people use it to come down instead of the pitched path becouse that is full of people going up! The facts are plain, the valley can not cope with this event in its current form, if nothing is done it will deteriate rapidly and detract from the pleasure of all who come to enjoy it during the daylight hours.
How can this be controlled then? simple control point 2 which is that most of the events are organised by large National and International charites as fundraisers. If the large charities who run the events can be convinced of the damage they cause and turn to alternate methods of fundraising then much of the above can be avoided. The small individual groups who do the event over 3 days cause little bother, its the 24 hour biggies that are the problem.
To put this into context next weekend or the weekend after I forget which, one big charity will put 2000 people on the summit of the pike over a 24 hour peroid. To do this they will attack it from three valleys and use the services of a national event management company. For each person of the 2000 doing the event, £100 of the sponsorship money they raise will go to the company who do very well thank you very much and bugger the consequences. Most big charity events do this.
