Gear

With both Gore and LA claiming the most breathable waterproofs ever I thought that it was generally recognised that Paramo's Nikwax Analogy was the most breathable condensation-free system available? Right or wrong?

Do paramo guarantee their stuff to be waterproof though?
Didn't think they did, due to the fact that if you lean against something in the wet then the water gets through.
Not saying Paramo stuff is or isn't good BTW(cos I've not got round to trying it yet) but it might explain why other manufacturers can make this claim.

Si(C)

'Forget, for the moment, technical terms like 'waterproofing' and 'breathability'. What do they mean anyway? Think about being comfortable.' - Paramo web site.

The term Paramo have tended to use is along the lines of 'effectively waterproof', but it isn't in technical terms, I think. I'm not knocking Paramo btw, I think it's great stuff for winter conditions, though it's relatively heavy and a bit warm for me.

Also I doubt Paramo is technically waterproof in lab tests since it relies partly on body heat etc to driver water outwards faster than it can come in, something that's hard to simulate in the lab.

Oh, and Paramo do say their stuff is waterproof btw, at least their web site lists some products as 'waterproof', so I stand corrected.

The Paramo catalogue states:
'Paramo Guarantee that....the weather protection system employed by Paramo...will outperform membrane and coating-based waterproof systems'

It goes further to say that it is 'Rain Room Tested' and does indeed term its weather-resistant clothes as Waterproof.

Interesting, because I reckon if something lets in water when you rest against a wet rock, you've got a strong case for saying its not waterproof.

Si(C)

I generally shop by brand - more because I can be pretty sure that stuff from a handful of companies will fit me properly, and most the others don't have a snowball in hells chance! The exception being ME. I love their kit (what I have of it...) but know that their waterproofs will never fit me, but I keep trying anyway. Most of my gear is TNF, Marmot and Lowe as a result.

Gets worse when mountain biking though - I don't think I have very much cycling kit. Tend to use Patagonia base layers, a Lowe Adrenaline/Sprayway Microlight and cycling shorts. Just how do you get skinny enough to wear a cycling shirt without putting passers-by off their lunch... :-)

As a result though it is difficult for me to suggest anything outside of these brands, so you get a recuring theme with me!

Paramo's guarantee seems pretty meaningless to me. How can anyone prove or disprove that 'the weather protection system employed by Paramo...will outperform membrane and coating-based waterproof systems'? What does 'outperform' mean? Lets in less water, lets out more, lasts longer?

And 'Rain Room Tested' means precisely nothing. It's the results that matter, not the exercise of testing in itself.

What really makes a difference to keeping you dry inside is weather, activity level, personal body chemistry, other layers worn, garment cut, fit and venting. The most breathable fabric in the world will be uncomfortable if it's made up into a poorly designed garment and worn for active use with unsuitable clothing in humid conditions. All this 'our fabric's more breathable than yours' guff is only a small part of the total picture.

yes but they can't explain it can they, it's not like selling cars where they can quote performance figures (which I reckon are rigged anyway), trouble with this game it that the only time you're going to find out if a piece of kit's any good (or if it's going to suit your body chemistry / activity etc) is to get out there and use it in anger, and by then it's too late, you've bought it, you're already the proud owner, unless your name's Jon of course where folks send him stuff to try out

FWIW I've got a Paramo waterproof and it must rate of one the best buy's I've made. It's never let me down yet.

Well I think Jon hit the nail on the head a year or two ago when he said that the difference in breathability between the top products is rather less than humans are actually capable of detecting... therefore design & fit is really more critical than what a jackets actually made of.

Plus ther's other factors involved, such as the quality of the DWR. If your jacket wets out, it's as breathable as PVC no matter what it's made of. That's why I personally believe Lowe Alpine TPC is the most breathable stuff, due to Dry Yarn and the rest. (Did I just contradict myself?)

Of course, being able to claim 'most breathable ever' is a great selling point for a brand, so they're never going to stop trying to out do each other.

I should read these but I can't really be bothered at the moment (far too busy!)

Here is a copy of summat I prepared earlier

Hi I decided to put pen to paper & digit to keyboard!

LAMINATES
Let's suppose that there is a fantastic ideal waterproof & breathable laminate designed into a jacket for outdoors use. It claims to be 90% breathable in laboratory tests.

Assuming 100% of the operational micro-porous surface works and that perspiration is in an ideal form (airborne) then 90% of it will pass through the laminate. It also means that 10% wont. Over time this means a build up of airborne perspiration within the jacket itself. Add venting and two things happen simultaneously. In some parts perspiration will be vented to the atmosphere while in others venting will cause a huge increase in airborne to liquid condensation.

[end of part 1]

[part 2]

That is a simple model based on everything working as it should as determined in the laboratory. But real life is not like that! Only a fraction of perspiration will be in ideal airborne form. The rest will be in liquid form and on top of that a percentage of whatever is airborne will condense. We are also assuming ideal perspiration ie water. Sweat includes more than water as does rain. So over time what happens is the micro-pores in the laminate become clogged. Smeary hydrocarbons on the outside, condensed perspiration on the inside tend to clog the pores. In fact, a thin film of water over a breathable laminate will make it operationally non-breathable. Then we have to allow for the catalytic effect of condensed perspiration effecting more condensation of perspiration from its ideal airborne form into liquid form. Add a condensation effect based on temperature variation between inner and outer temperatures and we begin to get a truer picture of the behaviour of waterproof, breathable laminates used in outdoor activity jackets. Namely, waterproof & breathable laminate jackets used in hi-energy outdoor activities will fill up with condensate.

The increase of condensates is exponential during hi-energy activities. All this is not to condemn outright laminated jackets. It is to indicate that such jackets are probably best suited to lo-energy use in lowlands. In fact, laminate jackets are actually very comfortable in that type of use.

[end of part 2]

[part 3]

What does this mean?
It means that nothing is perfect and laminates do have a place & role but there are upper and lower limits of best-use.

Alternatives?
On the other hand there are other systems. My preference as you can probably guess is Paramo kit. Yes, I admit it I have been Paramo-ed. I could not believe the comparison between laminates and Paramo systems. On more than one occasion I have tried broil ups in Paramo kit (going fast, hard & long with all venting & zips closed up, all drawcords pulled in tight) The result? Make sure you wear a Paramo base-T. The differences between Paramo kit & laminate kit in hi-energy outdoor activities is on par with chalk and cheese.

I expect it is a bit boring listening to a Paraholic - I wish that I had an opportunity to test other kit (Rab, Buffalo, Transpire stuff, ... ) but I am not a researcher and the costs of buying kit just to check it out are far too high. If you can get Buffalo, Rab, ... to send me kit I will happily evaluate it!

There are huge problems associated with bonding or gluing a micro-porous bit of plastic to a protective outer layer too. Most adhesives will block the micro-pores. That is why people like Henkel, BASF, ... and such great names as these try to come up with bonding systems that do not compromise breathability of the laminate.

I hope this helps you! As for Paramo's pricing policy, nothing would suit me better if they cut all their prices by 50% or even more!

TERMS - things such as waterproof, breathable are terms to assess the performance of an object. The terms are quite well-defined within their own particular realm. But these definitions are very precise
"mean" means quite a lot in colloquially use of language
"mean" means a very precise thing in statistics

oh go on then - I'll be quiet

Shucks - I changed my mind. Another important factor is strength of the outer fabric. Mountains, hills & trekking can be hazardous to health. Walking off the edge of a cliff, for example, is NOT to be recommended.

Take a rucksack. Any rucksack. Some manufacturers decide to use very abrasive fabrics on load bearing interfaces (eg straps) On a laminate with a reasonable weight in the 'sack you may experience effects similar to wet n dry sandpaper working on the outer surface of the laminate. It leads to blocked micro-pores, reduced breathability, ... (just look for all those scuff marks on your most used bit of jacket kit)

When a fabric works at molecular level the interruption of effectiveness tends to be at the molecular level too.

ho-hum

next?

It's a religious experience really...

I like Paramo a lot, it works very well in cool, damp UK conditions - see the reviews on the site for confirmation. For me it's simply too warm outside winter though and it's also on the heavy side. Quite a lot of the time waterproofs get carried rather than used and I can't think of a particularly convincing reason why I should carry around 900 grammes of Paramo Velez when a 270 gramme Paclite smock exists (it does btw, but not quite yet).

Laminates also tend to work better in high mountain conditions where there's a greater temperature humidity difference between the outside and the inside of the garment.

That's by the by. It depends a bit on how you use your kit and what your priorities are as ever. Of course there's the wider context of manufacturers being in thrall to the layering system because it enables them to sell lots of layers and they've made big investments in them, but the whole soft shell revolution thing is partly an acknowledgement that there are better solutions in some situations, even Gore has developed its own softshell stuff.

Anyway, I'm blathering on now. The latest laminates are a big improvement on what's been around until now - watch the site next week for some gen - and like I said, they weigh a lot less. Oh, talking of which, the Paramo shell jackets are great but the fleece? Weighs a ton. And the Fuera isn't great for the money, try Encapsil or the same fabric from GoLite.

I don't think there's a 'right answer'. What I will do is bring a Paramo top on a couple of meet-ups so people who are interested can try it and see what they think. Can't say fairer than that really.

When I said laminates work better in high mountain conditions I meant relative to the dampish UK climate rather than in comparison to other clothing systems like Paramo, which I haven't used at high altitude.

Good idea Jon (taking Paramo on a meet) how about a Mountain Shirt or Trail shirt too?

I do a tiny bit of trekking about the Med. A Fuera jacket over a Trail shirt (for me) is the tops. Nothing comes close. As for weight - well once the kit bag is filled that's it! As a rule I always take a poncho wherever I go too. So I tend to look at the big picture Fuera, Trail & Poncho give me & my kit bag tres good protection.

I have been in situations where my kit was the only dry kit in the expedition. Rain about the Med can fall in big lumps for a long time & the poncho keeps me and my sack nice & dry & tres, tres well ventilated.

But like I said - if you like other stuff that is fair enough it is a big world and the choice of kit out there is probably better than it has ever been.

One of the things I would like to try is an external frame 'sack. I've never tried one before and would like to see how it performs

toodle-oo big wide world

baga