Paul, you seem to be suggesting that I am critical of yourself and Dave for your stance and suggesting that therefore you are irresponsible "handlers."
Nothing could be further from the truth.
My stance could equally be viewed as irresponsible, in that I do not put "winter" coats on my dogs.
What I am saying however is that in common with most Sarda dogs and Police dogs, the only coats that I put on my dogs are on grounds of visibility and to keep them dry, and the second of which is just as unnecessary for the dogs as providing them with winter coats, as keeping them dry is a matter of convenience, not dog welfare.
I did concede however that Dave has a fair point in as much as they are not "working" and therefore they may be at a greater "disadvantage" than working dogs.
As for doing them no harm by putting coats on, then that is open to conjecture, and I have been influenced by professional opinion on this. Placing a coat on a dog makes them moult more to start with, as the dog's constitution attempts to compensate for the extra artificial warmth. It could mean that dogs are slowly being de-sensitised from their natural defences to the cold. If, as in your's and Dave's case, you use such items in the most extreme conditions only, then it probably doesn't matter so much, but I know of BC owner's who don't take their dogs anywhere without a coat.
Too many people think in human terms when considering their dogs, which is quite natural, but it could conflict with what is best practice for the dogs themselves.
I personally didn't take any offence at Tony's post and didn't take it as critcism in any way.
I merely wanted to make the point, immediately conceded by Tony, that human habits imposed on dogs can make a difference to a dogs natural behaviour and use of its natural protection.
I believe all 3 of us are responsible dog owners, and most of all know our dogs and when they are and are not comfortable with the situations we put them in. Whilst a working breed like a BC does have incredible natural protection from the elements if it's forced to stop, against its natural instincts, in a position exposed to severe weather then the situation is no longer the same as it would be if either working or wild.
To be blunt I doubt there is anyone in the land I would be happier to leave my dog with than Tony if I were to need to go away without him. I am certain that Tony would recognise if and when Flash needed a coat, and would act appropriately according to Flash's own needs.
Of course different breeds may or may not require coats, but this knowledge only comes with experience. The vital thing to remember, IMHO, is that coats, boots and other "accessories" should only ever be used to serve the dog's needs and not as a fashion item.
It really is good to see people so interested in the welfare of their dogs :)
I hold my hand up to being the type of owner who feels concerned and paranoid about taking their BC out in very extreme conditions, when prehaps my concerns are unfounded.
I've taken him out in some very bad conditions (deep snow and high wind) and been quite concerned as to his well being, paws etc. Again, prehaps unfounded. He's always appeared to really enjoy himself.
The problem being that BCs never show any negativity, which does not necessarily mean that they aren't about to have problems or having problems with their paws etc.
This summer, he's been doing alot of limping after combinations of playing in water and walking/running. This will only make me more paranoid about the fact that he doesn't know any better and is a domestic BC and things like his paws and coat will not be hardened for winter conditions like a working dog would be.
Having said that, I've always understood that he is basically a working dog or from that bread and will only need 'aid' in the most extreme environments. But, it's a very difficult judgment to make, when you don't get any real feedback from them.
Now the nights are drawing in keep your dogs in sight during dark walkies.
Here's how...
Go to your local bike shop. Buy a reflective ankle/leg/arm band with flashing red lights on it. There are some with an elastic section that can be tensioned.
They fit round your dog's neck fine and are elastic enough to pull off if snagged. (not that they have snagged yet!)
We usually get 2 or 3 years out of them, you can replace the watch syle battery no problem.
Always a fine line - I got slated some time ago (not this forum) for giving my GSD a coat for his first winter but the person didn't take into account that it was a puppy who had been quite ill and needed a little extra to see him through to wellbeing.
So I would agree, that it's good to read that people do care for their dogs, you can't please everyone and as for fashion, it doesn't come into the equation for my dog, my dog would wear fox poo any day of the week if he had his way, and that's about as fashionable as it gets for him.
But, it's a very difficult judgment to make, when you don't get any real feedback from them
That's strange and a little disconcerting to hear Paul. My Border Collie gives me lots of feedback. Perhaps it's down to the amount of time I spend with him, having worked from home for the majority of his life, but I can tell when he's asking for specific things from going out to food to playing. On the hill he can tell me when he's not happy with a situation, when he's cold (yes it does happen in very wet and windy conditions occassionally), and even when he wants to take a break. He also comes to me if he has any problem from a cut paw to something stuck between his teeth that he needs help with and seems to know that whatever the problem I'll try and sort it. I certainly believe that dogs can give feedback - it's just a matter of knowing them well enough.
Yes, I'm with Dave on this one, my dogs certainly "talk" to me. So much of a dog's "vocabulary" is subtle and very graphic. I can even tell by facial expression, particularly the ears. Combine that with body posture etc.
A HUGE advantage that I have is the fact that I am "controlling" three dogs, and I can see how they they interact with each other too, as well as with me.
I can see what Paul is referring to though, the dogs will suffer "in silence" if the signs and symptoms are not that obvious, and put up with things that humans would complain about.
I remember being on Penyfan one winter and I noticed blood in the snow. When I checked Meg had ripped her pad on some rocks and was quite merrily leaving a blood trail, but not limpimg or showing any signs of distress.
I spend so much time with the dogs and as a consequence, we have a very close relationship, so it is very easy for me.
I certainly understand my dogs better than the female human members of my famly!
Yes, I admit that my ability to 'read' a dogs body language is limited. In most situations I've got the body language pretty much sorted out, but bear in mind that I was not ever brought up with dogs in the family or have never owned any other dog.
Daves experience is exactly what I've experienced, that Murphy tends to suffer in silence especially with his paws. This has made me be more careful as to exactly what his body language is really all about, especially in extreme environments (of which snow, ice and wind chill, you don't get to experience very often).
Just to expand on what I said. Being an intelligent BC, I generally do get lots of feed back from him in body langauge etc. However, in certain circumstances that body Language is not there ie. when his paws have been in bad shape. Maybe thru inexperience, it has lead me to wonder, in what other situations am I not understanding what is actually happening with him?.
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