It is very likely it is my inability to navigate, but I had a look 3 times to find this scramble which is described here as well as in other places, but never managed to figure it out.
However controversial the use of GPS might be among outdoor people, this is an example where a good list of waypoints would make sense.
It would be great if these great guys at outdoormagic would ask the writers of submitted scramble routes to include a few relevant waypoints, if nothing else, at least the start of the route.
Hope I haven't made up too much noise, now I am off my soapbox! alex
Can't help you with this one, but i found the same with the Ashton guide to Scrambles in Snowdonia. I've looked at it a couple of times and decided that it's useless to me in its current form. Some of these less popular scrambles can be less obvious to follow. Therefore, it's easier to lose your way and as i'm not a climber, find myself in a potentially difficult situation.
Ok, probably nothing too worrying if you're doing a grade 2 / 3 when you might well have climbing gear. If you're doing a grade one and dont intend to (or are unable to!) climb, i can see trouble! The other option is to go with someone who knows the route, but this would spoil the fun for me.
GPS is definately the way to go, as it's cheaper than showing the route on an OS map.
I'm not disagreeing with your request for GPS waypoints, I just don't think that they would be always that helpful in this instance.
Let me explain. GPS requires the signals from at least 5 satellites to be accurate, but it isn't uncommon to only receive 4 in the mountains due to line-of-sight issues. What isn't always so obvious is that sometimes the signal from a satellite is 'bounced' or deflected by a solid object - like a crag or rockface. This 'deflected signal' screws up the accuracy. Example:- sat below Craig yr Oen in the Moelwyns at a definite known point (the incline junction with the road) the GPS was 100 metres North and 80 metres West wrong. On my GPS, this read as 4 satellites received and 3D imagery. I was a not-insignificant distance from the rock.
Two thoughts. Perhaps developing the skill in route-finding might pay better dividends for future progress in mountaineering (the Alps, Pyrenees and beyond)? Besides is it not the adventure and discovery which defines our sport?
I don't think it's got much to do with route finding (in my case, i cannot speak for others), as it has to working out where someone else is trying to describe which can be very difficult sometimes. (An analogy is probably any flat pack instructions you care to have about!)
While it is great to think that we're doing a route for the first time without the help of a guidebook or instructions, we still use a map as a bare minimum (in the UK, mabye not in more exotic places), so we have a good idea of what to expect. Making use of information from others about a route to me seems like good preparation, and the more information i can get the better (is the route particularly trecherous in the wet or strong winds for example?). I also want to make sure i've understood what those instructions mean and the GPS file would help me personally to find a scramble on the map.
GPS can be unreliable, yes. I've had some strange log files when on the Glyderau. Remember, you can view the gps file on an OS map on the PC (Tracklogs, et al) and then print out the map and then follow that in the field. If the OP then fails to find the scramble by doing that, then it might be fair to comment on their navigational skills!
In some ways I agree with Jan here about developing route finding skills. It's one of the things that makes me nervous about scrambling. I get nervous about this when climbing too but it seems worse when scrambling as the guidebooks do tend to include less detail (e.g., they tend not to give distances - or pitch lengths, if you like - as often as climbing guides). I think it is important to concentrate on your down climbing skills and to always think about how you might reverse something (taking the necessary equipment to do so if needs be) if it turns out you've gone the wrong way or can't get up what comes next.
I don't use GPS so can't really comment on that. A question though - would GPS coordinates (or whatever you call them) actually tell you which is the appropriate line to take though? If you are at point a and your gps is pointing you in the direction of point b, will it also tell you that to get to point b you need to traverse left for 3 meters and then take the right hand of the two grooves above? I would have thought not (and neither will your map) but maybe I don't understand gps properly.
Oh, another thought. It's important not to rely too heavily on simply following where the route is worn or polished when scrambling. Some scrambles are on buttresses where there are also graded rock climbs and they may cross at some points. So, you might end up going the wrong way by just following where the rock is worn or has crampon scratches.
Just a few comments on the replies to my little winge and gps coordinates.
Thanks Dave for your support on my gps coordinates "would like to have" whinge.
Jan, you are so right about signal deflection in the mountains. This is where a map is so important to double check everything you do when you badly need it. As Dave pointed out, as there are still few mistakes on OS maps, UK has been so well mapped, so hardly any "exploration" left to be done, only the adventure of going off the beaten track. Route finding skills are important of course and I feel one can only improve and get better without becoming too geeky and lose so much pleasure from our quest for adventure and love of wild outdoors.
Cath, I agree, route finding in scrambling is as important as is in climbing, maybe a wee bit more so. A scrambler should be even more aware of what s/he can safely downclimb, so assessment of the route is very important. Usually, the higher grade scrambles are in the region of Mod and Diff climbs but usually done solo. A GPS is just another tool we can use these days and not a solution to all problems.
Coming back to my "GPS whinge", GPS coordinates or waypoints would be very useful for people who enjoy scrambling. Even without a GPS you can plot them on a map so easily with the help of a good graded compass. Repeating myself, GPS device is just another tool and what I called "GPS coordinates" could be used with or without a GPS and they could give the scrambler the confidence of going up knowing is on the right route. What might look good for the next 20 meters up could transform into a complete nightmare if you picked up the wrong rib or gully.
I would still like to see a few waypoints for the scrambles published here, specially as the OutdoorMagic routes are indeed some of the best in the country, not to mention very gratefully, FREE!!!
A GPS is just another tool we can use these days ...
But how would it help you find the way? Sorry, but I'm still puzzled about my earlier question. I can see how it would help you to find the bottom of the route (as would a grid reference), but would it really help with route finding on the route? If so, how? Can somebody explain this?
Sorry, meant to say - I can see from Alex's example how it might help if the route is in a straight line, but often they aren't. Finding the easiest line on rock seems often to involve a lot of rising traverses or grooves that trend left or right in my experience (which of scrambling is not huge, I should add!) So, how would GPS help in the situation where it's not a straight line?
There is a 500m scramble on Ill Crag in the Lakes where I had lots of waypoints loaded in my GPS. As a difference to climbing, a scrambler would choose his/her own route as 90% of the time there are alternatives. This scramble on Ill Crag has scope of maybe 100 meters wide, maybe more, to choose a route from. There are all sorts of traverse lines you can take and it's all great fun. My GPS came very handy at the beginning of the route and then checked it from time to time whether I was still on the route or wondered too much off the route.
So basically, a few waypoints would be very useful to double check you are in the right place on a long scramble route. As scrambling goes, one would alternate walking and very easy rock climbing, but the length of the route woulde be quite long and zigzaggy, with a lot of scope to go wrong. This is where the GPS coordinates (or waypoints) of significant change in direction could be very useful to double check yourself you haven't misread the route description and fitted what you would like to see to what is there.
On a really long multipitch climb sometimes one could do with a very precise GPS coordinates, but unfortunately the technology isn't quite there yet to help climbers with the precision they need, but a scrambler could do with some help.
I'd have though the level of precision needed on many scrambles and climbs would be similar really, but I can kind of see what you mean about change of direction. I suspect I'd have to see this working to be really convinced that it was precise enough to be helpful.
Well GPS is way out of my budget so such things are alien to me. However coming back to the route that started this little debate I just tackled it with a mate and, ok it was a pretty fine day with perfect visibility, but by putting our heads together and using the text and pictures in the Ashton guide (yeah I know it can often be fairly unconvincing and unclear in the descriptions but this one has a couple of handy pics to go with it) together with what we could see it wasn't too hard to find the Porcupine, the Pinnacle Ridge start being obvious from the road! Actual route finding on the upper sections of the scramble were fairly obvious to be honest. What wasn't too silly to attempt we did.
