Soapbox

Maybe I'm a bit prejudiced precisely because I have relatively weak ankles from fell running injuries picked up whilst wearing shoes very similar to these in races in years gone by. As a result I believe that 3mm thickness of quality Italian leather and 2kgs of boots is the ONLY thing to put on your feet where heading outdoors - especially if you are "making your own tracks" across Scottish moorland to get Munros and/or carrying weight. I come from a cycling background and no-one need to tell me about every gramme less on a bike helping it to go up hill faster, but this logic simply doesn't apply to gaining 700m of un-pathed heigth in the realms of say Ben Alder, (and not even going up the tourist trail to Old Man of Coniston). Especially once you add in the rain. I have a pair of lightweight Scarpa ZG65 boots which I consider offer minimum ankle support: I don't consider them really suitable for un-pathed Munro bagging in any season as there simply isn't enough ankle support to "throw" my ankle back if a knot of bracken or tuft of grass starts to send it in a nasty direction. Similarly, in terms of carrying weight on good paths, lightweight boots like this are only suitable for maximum pack of 40L/8kg over 8 hour day; My other boots are new version Mantas and will carry heavier weights and will allow me to confidently traverse "straight line" descents off Munros in all weathers. Furthermore, I wore them with no problems day after day in Switzerland in 30C heat with no overheating/blister problems ( 2 pairs Thorlos helped). Why would anyone choose a flimsy, lightweight shoes with minimum grip, absolutely no ankle protection and nothing to keep your feet dry from submergence in icy peat bogs? Inov8 aren't bad fell/trail shoes by any standards and I know very well we live in an age of "market diversification" but trying to flog these things for anything other than the most leisurely beach stroll seems a step to far in my book.

Apparently it's the ankle cup on the shoe which provides the support and not the high leather ankle on boots.

I'm still a bit wary myself.

It is the heel cup that provides ankle support. Most lightweight boots don't actually give any more ankle support than trail shoes. Try standing on the outside edge of a pair of boots to see how much support they give. The only boots I have that give appreciable support are plastic ski touring boots.

I use trail shoes or sandals for most of my walking and, as I've said many times, I find light flexible footwear more secure than heavier footwear because it allows my feet to move and flex naturally. Inov8 shoes don't have minimum grip, they have excellent grip - better than that on many boots. There are versions with Gore-Tex linings now and you can wear waterproof/breathable socks. The last is the best choice in my opinion - on a recent two-day crossing of Moidart (which has some of the toughest terrain anywhere in the British hills) two of us (TGO deputy editor John Manning and me) wore trail shoes with waterproof/breathable linings while Simon Willis wore Inov8 shoes with long SealSkinz socks. Simon was the only person with dry feet by the end. Boots wouldn't have been much help either, the bogs were too deep.

Obviously it is a matter of choice if Mantas feel fine for summer walking (I would hate them) that's not a problem. However to say that alternatives like Inov8s are unsuitable is incorrect. Plenty of people have walked thousands of miles in all conditions in Inov8s and other light flexible footwear. They choose them because they make their walking easier and more enjoyable. It may not be so for everyone but those who see advantages in light footwear are not wrong.

I think the excellent innov8 brand is going to be irreprably damaged by people trying to force a square block into a round hole.

What's the square block and what's the round hole?

can't see that as they are lightweight running shoes. if you choose to walk in them on other terrain it is your choice.
many items of kit sourced from other "disciplines" can be used with great success by dint of their design and durability (or lack of).

Does this mean that if I get some decent insoles (like superfeet) I will get as much support in a shoe as I will in a boot? I have weak ankles and usually feel that boots give me more confidence. However having said that I have just bought some of the new GTX Inov8s, with the view to use them as a light weight alternative to boots?

Bob, you'll get as much support as in a lightweight boot. An Inov8 shoe won't give as much support as a Scarpa Manta. Decent insoles do make a difference. I use Superfeet in trail shoes. Your ankles should get stronger as you use the shoes.

Chris,

I tackle easier stuff in my Montrail Hardrocks, but at the back of my mind is the fear of going over on my ankle.

In the rockier hills and trails I always wear my Meindl Lhotse tear round...... and these give me more confidence.

I also use the Lhotse's for winter stuff and crampon use.

I wear the same pair of Superfeet greens in both pairs of footwear.

How do these two compare to each other?

Chris, without meaning to be all macho and uponemanship-ish, with regard to your point "They choose them because they make their walking easier and more enjoyable", I'm specifically talking about the days when, though self-inflicted rationale or otherwise, the walking isn't particularly easy or enjoyable in the accepted sense. To go and do a 9 or 10 hour day comprising up 5-7 Munros by yourself in tough conditions on top in anything other than 2kg boots is making unfair reliance on the emergency helicopter. That's an undisputed fact and that's what influences ALL my equipment buying. My last 3 "raids" to Scotland have involved these kinds of logistics and this is why I'm joined at the hip to meaty Scarpa boots. I have used both SLM3s and Mantas straight from the box on very long days with no discomfort. Water never penetrates the leather but, sure, it goes right over the top, but with quality socks you can walk for hours on end in these boots when they are soaked inside without getting blisters. By the way, I don't work for Scarpa and even though I'm clearly attached to their products I'd give my right Manta for the comedy value of going round half a dozen Cairngorm Munros with someone wearing Inov8s.

Any time any place (up to the snowline) Lix.

Rough Bounds of Knoydart: day 1 four: Sgurr Mor west to Sgurr na ciche; day 2 three: Meall, Luine Ladhar.
Sometime between Xmas and NY.
If you get to Newcastle from Sunderland I'll even give you a lift up.
Snowline's out of my hands, but I'd be expecting one.

Lix, I often go out and do many Munros or Corbetts (where the terrain is often harder and there are no paths) in tough conditions on my own in sandals or trail shoes (The Cairngorms are my local hills). Often I am out for days or even weeks at a time and so carrying camping gear. It is not an undisputed fact that this is "making unfair reliance on the emergency helicopter". It's not a fact at all.

If I did half a dozen Cairngorm Munros outside of snow conditions (when I'd be on skis) in Scarpa Mantas my feet would ache and I'd be stumbling and kicking rocks. In sandals or trail shoes my feet would be fine and I'd feel more stable and secure.

The point you make about quality socks is a good one and applies just as much to trail shoes.

The Scarpa SLs and Mantas are superb boots. If I thought I would need to wear crampons on steep terrain most of a day I might wear something like the SLs (though probably something lighter). But for most walking in the Highlands trail shoes and, in warm weather, sandals are the most appropriate footwear in my opinion.

Jethro, I've never used the Montrail Hardrocks but the specs look as though they should be suitable for all but snow conditions. The Lhotses are certainly good quality boots for crampon use. There is a huge gulf between the light flexible Hardrocks and the heavy stiff Lhotses and I can see that going from one to the other would be a bit of a shock.

With regard to the fear of going over on an ankle, something many people have, many trail shoes are flexible enough that this shouldn't do any harm as your ankle will flex normally. Thin soles like those on the Inov8 help with this too as thick soles can apply to much leverage. Many years ago I sprained my ankle badly and tore my Achilles tendon when I slipped while descending a wet grassy slope. I was wearing lightweight boots with an ankle cuff just stiff enough to stop my ankle turning over. Instead it twisted and tore, which was very painful and stopped me walking for a long time. I've never had such an injury wearing shoes.

Whilst I'm often to be found trying to temper Chris & Cameron's evangelism for using approach shoes in the hills, I'd never say that "To go and do a 9 or 10 hour day comprising up 5-7 Munros by yourself in tough conditions on top in anything other than 2kg boots is making unfair reliance on the emergency helicopter".

It really depends on your personal preference, experience, what you're used to, and which route you take. Plenty of Munros are nothing but smooth paths.

Pick footwear to suit the conditions (geographical and meteorological) and your personal preference and physiology; don't stick to hard-and-fast rules.

If you're happy with boots to support your weak ankles, fine, but please don't suggest that your solution is the only solution for everybody.

Captain Paranoia, if I'm evangelical it's for sandals!

Lix: I fear that you are falling into the trap of assuming that what suits you is of universal application.

I have been plagued all my life with a high instep and weak ankles and, when a child, frequently twisted my ankles. In time, I learned how to react with great speed as soon as my ankle started to turn so that any trauma was minimized.

For fifty years or so I was convinced that I needed ankle support which could only be provided by stout boots. But in the last two or three years have been impressed by those, like Chris, who have trumpeted the merits of trail shoes.

But I was nervous, so I followed a regimen of ankle exercise. Every morning I lie on my bed with my feet protruding over the edge and write the lower-case alphabet in the air with each foot. Regular use of a wobble board has also helped. This has strengthened my ankles wonderfully and I now always wear lightweight boots on the hill. I have started to wear trail shoes for lowland walks and on my next trip to the mountains I shall wear them and carry my lightweight boots in my pack as an insurance policy.

I'm a cissy and hate having wet feet. I have proved to my own satisfaction that SealSkinz will keep them dry under almost any conditions. Recently, I spent the day walking on little-used field paths through soaking wet ankle-length grass and waded through a flooded road, but at the end of the day my feet were dry.

As a convert to minimalist backpacking, I want not only to reduce the weight of my rucksack but also to keep what I am wearing as light as possible.

"Look! Chris has left behind a sandal! It's a sign!"

"He's saying sandals are rubbish, and we should use 2kg boots!"

"No, he's saying sandals are too heavy, and we should go barefoot in the mountains!"

<with apologies to Monty Python>

:-)

One disadvantage of sandals - pigs steal them on the GR20!

"I fear that you are falling into the trap of assuming that what suits you is of universal application."
Hugh, I admit you are probably right there and I take on board the interesting comments from the rest of the guys too.
Nice debate though that's cut through most of Friday afternoon in the office and got us all closer to the weekend exploits.
Have a good one!

(PS I'm neither sandals nor Scarpas this w/end but SPDs)

Thanks Chris.

The Lhotses aren't that heavy for a 3/4 season boot mind you, certainly not compared to Scarpa SL's.

I am impressed however with the Montrail Hardrocks. I just wish I'd bought 4 pairs when they where on sale in George Fishers (£40).

ah well, we live and learn...