.jpg) Hugh, I was relaying my experience with old skool map, compass and traditional altimeter, just assuming the same would stand with a GPS altimeter function. However, you are correct, an instanct grid ref fix and relay to map would tell you exactly where you are anyway.
I've obviously not got to grips with the whole concept yet.
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 Sean, I bought my yellow eTrex for exactly the same reason ie. when I'm by myself and the fog closes in. They can be picked up very cheap now. I bought mine on Amazon for about £63 + delivery (about £5 I think). It was sold by another company through Amazon. They've even dropped down to under £60 now which is quite a bargain IMHO - try this link.
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 I think Hugh has given the most useful function of a GPS other than simply finding out exactly where you are (which is of course useful in itself :-)). In fact I think Hugh's point is so important that it's worth emphasising. A GPS will always point you towards your destination regardless of where you are so if you have to deviate to go round an obstacle a GPS will show the correct direction from the other side. No pace counting, no timing, no taking another compass bearing. In mist or darkness (I've used this to find a wild camp on descending from a peak after sunset a few times) this makes navigation easy. Of course your destination does have to be entered into the GPS first.
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 I think the Geko will do what it says on the tin and anyone who wants a GPS simply for backup couldn't go wrong buying one. I used to use a Garmin etrex Summit and I used it mainly for back up because of the limitations of the signal dropping out.
However, in a moment of madness last year I bought the Garmin Map 60CSX and was gob smacked at what it can do. It doesn't lose the signal in the house if I stay near a window. It has NEVER lost signal in a wood (and I live next to Thirlmere Forest so it gets used in woods often).
I always carry a map and compass but they have never been taken out of my rucksac for months fog, rain whiteout conditions the GPS and its map have coped with everything.
One proviso - I have the "topo" map of the UK in my SD card and this is a cut down version of the OS map with contour info, tarns and some paths but little else. This means that to use it for navigation without referring to a paper map you really need to upload your planned route from the computer to act as a reference when navigating. Either that or you need to upload significant waypoints (summits, junctions etc.) before you start the walk.
I suppose the next step will be to put a full OS map from Memory Map or Anquet on to the GPS. Some machines can do this already but not Garmin. I just hope that when an SD version of Memory Map is released it will load onto my Garmin without me having to buy another.
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 I resisted carrying one for ages but wandering about in Northern Sweden last year persuaded me that it was worth it. The mapping up there is oddly unreliable. It's mostly great - then they'll miss off a 250 meter cliff that's right across your path.
They can be handy for saving time when you're not 100% sure of where you are, it's clagged-in, freezing and the rest of the herd are starting to look cold. By the time it's woken up and (hopefully) confirmed exactly where you are, you've planned your next direction and what the next feature you're looking for is.
But the main thing I've used it for is essentially what Hugh and Chris T mentioned - marking good wild camp pitches, and then walking straight in to them late at night after a long drive. That's the last time you want to be practising your night nav :)
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I used map and compass for years. Started to get lazy and thought i would buy a basic Garmin Etrex. FANTASTIC. I dont care what anyone says, when in the highlands of Scotland,(which is the only place i walk) it can be a life safer. Micro managment can be so tedius, and time wasting. Now i enjoy my walking in any weather, without having my nose in a map, or counting steps.
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I agree they are very "enabling." As long as whoever uses them also has the map and compass and the skill to use both. I think it's hard to argue that they are anything other than a very useful extra tool - but never a replacement
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 For me the GPS is strapped to my Rucksack recording a breadcrumb track as I walk, there is a route loaded in case of difficulty but as I mostly tend not to stick to routes these days the GPS tells me where I've been. When I get home and plug it back into the computer I can compare where I have actually been and compared to where I thought I have been! It also gives me some useful stuff like how long I've been walking for, how far I've walked, how long I've stopped for and how fast I'm walking - good info if you are hitting the hills training for those big walks in the Alps/Nepal/Peru etc!
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 I disagree Yeti. A modern GPS with mapping display and spare batteries is a complete replacement for map, compass and the ability to navigate. Away from dense plantations and canyons that is. It won't of course stop you finding awful routes between waypoints or tumbling over crags. It definitely won't help you plan your routes either. But it will navigate for you.
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Marcus - you certainly have a point, I think I should have given my rather sweeping statement more context. It will navigate for you but it's specifically the reliability aspect of the more complex technical solution (GPS) that makes me say what I said. In many ways sophisticated GPS is a better navigation tool than map and compass. GPS is easier to use and it knows exactly where you are - brilliant - I love it (the TomTom is now indispensable for me in the car). But I personally think that since a GPS runs on batteries which can go flat, using software that can have bugs, running on hardware that can fail, interpreting an occasionally unreliable signal from satellites that need to be in line of sight (and can even be "scrambled" by the US Military despite assurances they have given) - I would always take a printed piece of paper and a simple, magnetized floating needle as well. I always have an atlas in the boot of the car too. But that's "always" when out in the mountains or "proper" wilderness environment. When on the Sussex Downs, in farmland, on an organised race or many other lower risk environments, then no, I agree a map and compass are not necessary. I'm not saying that taking a just GPS into any environment can't be done. Just that I don't think it's a good idea to do so in the more challenging ones. Anyone doing so must be prepared to get themselves out of trouble using only their whits. As a friend of mine who's an MIC and has taught thousands of people navigation says "We do not have a 'sense of direction'. We are not birds. We do not have magnetic bones in our heads". Without help from tools even the most experienced of us can walk in circles in poor visibility. Overall it comes down to a concern on my part that people might think that a sophisticated GPS is a straight replacement for a map and compass. Without realising that although they are gaining much, they are also increasing the risk of their chosen navigation aid simply failing on them. And regardless of how much they are raising that risk, the consequences of it can be very serious indeed. Does that tie-up more with what you think of it all? I'm interested to hear if there's anything that you don't agree with in all that Sorry I went-on so much! Just thought it was worth trying to get across exactly what I was thinking. Glad you said that - got me thinking - very interesting.
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 good points ry. just to add, albeit this perceptionmay change as one gets used to using osmthing different, is that the limited screen on a gps does not give you a large enough overview of the land. especialy if you like going for a wander rather than a route.
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 > and can even be "scrambled" by the US Military despite assurances they have given I think if the US military start scrambling the signal again, you'll have much more serious things to worry about... If course, our military sometimes play about with GPS jamming systems. They tell you where and when, though. If you know where to look... > We do not have a 'sense of direction'. We are not birds. We do not have magnetic bones in our heads True. But we do have a somewhat bigger brain. And some of us have the ability to use it to find natural directional clues. Like a GPS, though, you have to know where you're going, otherwise you'll navigate perfectly to the wrong place. I recently went to a wedding, an my BiL was using a TomTom to navigate. Unfortunately, the wrong destination had been entered (right village name, but the destaination wasn't in that village, even though that was its address. I had a little printed map and was following the route. I'd picked up where we were and told BiL to stop listening to the TomTom if it told him to take the next right, as I suspected it would take us to the village. He didn't listen...
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PA: Yes - I find that with online mapping on a large monitor. Hand held GPS mapping tools I think I'd find impossible to make up roots on from scratch. CP: They are very insistent those TomToms... > I think if the US military start scrambling the signal again, you'll have much more serious things to worry about... Probably - and you might want to be nowhere near civlisation at that stage either  > If course, our military sometimes play about with GPS jamming systems. They tell you where and when, though. If you know where to look... You can get on to the mailing list to be told of upcoming GPS jamming tests. But I've only seen one email in about nine months. Maybe the spam filter ate them... If anyone wants it - sign up here: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/subscribe/select_list.htm
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I don't think it's a choice between traditional map and compass and a GPS receiver; use whatever suits you better. A receiver is generally better for pure navigation (i.e. for getting from A to B) but if you want to read the countryside through which you are passing then an Explorer map wins every time. A map will help you understand why a farm was built there, what those faint marks in the hillside are, the changes in land usage, and many other things. As far as I'm concerned, walking is not just enjoying the scenery or seeing how many miles I can cover in a day but also involves the history of our ever-changing landscape.
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I'm not sure anyone's saying that it's a choice between then as such. As you say - whatever works best for you. The only thing that's seems to be disagreed on is whether it's okay to always take just a GPS if that is your preferred way to navigate. Even in wilderness/mountains. I still don't think it is - but I'm wondering if anyone has a different idea - and why?
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 I have a Garmin GPSmap 60CSx with Topo mapping, it's also chock full of custom POI (points of interest). Also I have a Hewlet Packard pocket PC with a built in GPS receiver which any loaded program can use - I use Fugawi digital maps to access it which gives me OS like maps - it's not as sophisticated as the Garmin (the maps don't auto rotate) but I can walk around with my position in the centre of the map. I always carry spare batteries for both machines 'and' a printout of Fugawi's map and sometimes a printout from GoogleEarth as it often shows where paths really are.
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Chris - Right - so carrying a map too. Do you carry a compass? Just curious.
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so a map to back up the gps as i use a gps to back up the map. never thought of trying it that way round.
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