Way to go! I can see the Channel Four Alive tv reconstruction, and the Ray Mears tv show item of it too, being now not so very far away from soon being made! The individual will to live is surely the best of all sure fire survival essentials in such conditions and situations!
Is it just me who when walking in the mountains solo in the winter, always wears a helmet even when on easy terrain, packs a stove/Fuel and 24hrs worth of rations on top of my day rations, a sleeping bag and a bivvy bag which is on the sleeping bag to keep it dry in stuff sack, A Golite Hex3, proper top quality duvet jacket, balaclava, down mitts, pair thick thermal trousers, 25 mile strobe light and infa red cylumes, head torch and spare AAA's, Crampons and Ice axe aswell as wearing/carrying a heavy weight B'haus gortex outer layer.
I never plan to stay out for the night on a day walk but I have the kit to do so or protect a casualty if I ever happen upon one.
This lot only weighs a few kilo's (8.4) in a tighly pulled in rucksack which helps keep my liver and kidneys warm and provides me with an insulated sleep pad if needs be. Also keeps you weight tolerant and load lugging fit.
I am sorry but I was trained in the Army to go nowhere without sufficient resources to sustain me for 24hrs+, equipment to protect me from the elements and to be prepared for the unexpected.
THE MOUNTAINS ARE A DANGEROUS PLACE IN JUNE. Be prepared for the terrain and the weather.
We all too often see posts about people who have ventured into the mountains without the correct kit, or think they are far too experienced or good to need the kit and the day walk turns inta a deadly nightmare......those two Uni lads last year found 200/300m away from a car park died of hyperthermia/exposure after getting caught out in dreadfull conditions.
Do your family, friends and your mates here on OM a favour, take a frigging Rucksack with the right KIT IN IT !!!!!
This "Must go out walking (ultra) lightweight" mentality is KILLING FOLK in the winter and I'm telling ya i'll write this again when I see that a fellow OM member Name has been posted as an obituary and has become a victim of thier own stupidity for being i'll prepared.
And yes I realise he was avalanched but if he'd have had my rucksack on his back he would have been in a far, far better state when the MRT found him.
PPP = PPP
Rant over and thanks for putting up with me Guys and Gals but I write sense
Cruxster, you speak no "blox" on this subject at all, and indeed no word of a lie I think! A very good instructive inspirational post. I am inspired by it!
GR, the padlock on the box that day was due to the fact that David Blaine bloke was adready in there practising an escape from the box feat! If it had been up to me, I think I would have also nailed the lid shut and even maybe welded Blaine into the box too though, and of course suspended him high "above the below"!!!!
though your kitlist is a bit more extensive than mine for winter walking, I do carry quite a margin of safety in my kit. And I won't be persuaded that an ultralight tent is an effective survival shelter either - if you think you can put one up on your own in a gale with a broken arm or leg then you are a lot tougher than me. So that means packing a light synthetic sleeping bag (with full zip), army bivvy bag and plenty of spare clothing.
As I am 82kg (about 13 stone) myself and row/run/climb/cycle four or five times a week, the difference in walking comfort from adding 1 or 2 kg of spare kit is marginal for the safety benefit. I never cease to be amused at the sight of under-trained 16-stone blokes sporting the latest ultralight kit and hoping it qualifies them to fly up the nearest munro!
Back on topic, it seems sad that some of these boxes have to be padlocked at all. It must have been the result of theft in the past which is disgraceful given the intended use. Perhaps they could compromise by using a coded padlock and then leaving a phone number at the trail head / carpark for people to get the code before they set off?
I don't agree with Cruxsterman. Show me the details of a hillwalker being killed because he was carrying lightweight kit. He or she might have the wrong kit or no kit or no knowledge of how to use it. Weight is only weight. It isn't a 'thing'. Your 8.4 kilo 'day' sack is heavier than my 2 week backpacking load. I carry all i need for a daywalk in winter. I just carry lighter options. I would say that carrying heavy loads in winter has probably resulted in more casualties/ MRT callouts over the years due to benightment caused by a slow pace. The unlucky climber who was avalanched ( due to a cornice collapse ) probably wouldn't have been able to climb Blackspout gully with your load on his back!
I am with cruxster on this (pretty inevitable I guess) go out expecting the worst and it wont happen. go out expecting everything will be fine and you end up with a very rapid unravelling of your choices. I understand what mike is saying but in effect he isnt disagreeing its just he is prepared to spend money on things like Titanium spoons wheras I make do with the old wooden racing spoon on a string round my neck!.
Cruxster wasnt saying that wieght was the important thing. he was saying that options and equipment are the important thing. the more options you have in any situation the better you are able to manage your situation and turn what may have been a perilous moment into a mere annoyance and a few hours discomfort that is barely worth mentioning.
If you dont carry the equipment to give you those options your situation becomes more tricky. It may not be a problem but your options for escape are then limited.
I do have a little bit of experience climbing in very poor conditions with no MRT availiable ( deep in the high arctic or in the antarctic.) If you have the equipment to cope if you are benighted then it doesnt matter. sit it out in a survivable position and make your way gradually down later If there is a chance that things will go wrong I would rather have the ability to do the tortoise job and work my way out after a few days of hardship rather than hope that I wont twist my ankle or meet anyone who is a casualty. there is a time for speed and lightweight, its just that I would rather have it as a choice rather than a necesscity
Isn't it a balance between carrying sufficent emergency equipment to deal with more forseeable situations while not impairing your ability to move at a reasonable speed? Where the balance point falls is down to you, your experience, the precise nature of what you're doing etc - you might choose to carry a different set of kit in the 'gorms compared to say, the Dales. At one end of the spectrum you've got a lightweight survival bag, at the other you might carry a full sleeping bag and bivvy.
I reckon the Blizzard Survival Bag is a pretty good compromise solution in that you're getting a waterproof bag that offers around the same levels of insulation as a 2/3 season sleeping bag and packs down to about the same size as a video cassette. Obviously not as comfortable as a proper sleeping bag, but significantly lighter and less bulky.
As far as the lightweight mentality thing goes. I was at the Innovations for Extremes things at Lancaster University a couple of years back and Mike Parsons - ex-Karrimor and now OMM - was arguing that really light kit puts the onus on the user to be able to use it efficently in a way that traditional stuff doesn't to the same extent. I think there's definititely some validity in that argument.
Traditionally it's often said that going prepared for an emergency bivvy is the surest way to ensure you have one, but I actually think lightweight kit has changed that slightly, in that it's now feasible to carry more extensive emergency kit without a massive weight penalty.
Cruxter, good that you carry all that kit but given this situation, where would you have used it? He was in a gully that had just avalanched (cornice collaspe). This gully has two exits so who is to say that the second cornice is not about to go too?
If you get out of the gully you are then in the firing line for the next gully which is a known avalanche hot spot.
In this case, the nearest safe place he could shelter was the first aid box. Even if this box was locked*, safe shelter can be had at this location.
All credit to the guy for getting himself to a safe position and waiting for rescue.
WB.
* - The Lochnagar First Aid Box has had items stolen from it in the past (100m static IIRC) but remains unlocked.
I wouldn't fancy carrying a sleeping bag, bivvy, tent, stove / fuel on top of my climbing stuff either. Its just going to make you move more slowly, make your day even longer, and more likely to force benightment.
In general my safety kit weighs approx 1kg and consists of a blizzard bag and 2 person bothy bag. It might not be a comfortable night if I'm forced to stay out, but it should keep me alive.
Though this thread is heading way off topic, I think the relevant ‘theme’ is experience. I have no doubt that Mike FD is as safe or safer in the hills than most due to his experience. Kit – lightweight or otherwise – is just kit in the end and people have died of hypothermia with extra layers or sleeping bags still in their packs. Rational decision making (such as levering off a padlock with an ice-axe) might not be possible in that kind of situation and as such it is experience – detecting the early signs of hypothermia in yourself or others – that is crucial. It is also experience and good judgement that are required to know when it is best to stay in and read a good book by the fire rather than set out into the thick of it.
Cruxster takes his military experience and applies it to being safe in the mountains by means of preparation. Others might be able to be safe with a lighter, more minimal strategy largely because they don’t go ‘looking for trouble’. Cruxster is known for seeking out grim conditions for his tent-bound adventures and in the same conditions it would be fair to advise inexperienced others to stay at home!
And I agree with much of what Jon has said. As kit has got lighter, more safety margin can be carried. Even those producing ultra-light minimalist equipment will usually state that this kind of gear requires expertise and a certain tolerance (bordering on masochism) to limited comfort. A quote from Mountain Laurel Designs "...We assume users understands standard UL clothing, shelter, site selection and quilt sleeping strategies." Going ultra-light is not just about forking out (more?) for lighter kit; it requires different techniques and expectations. Unfortunately, they don’t often say that on the tin!
I don’t have the wide and extreme experiences of many who post on this site, but if I set off in winter with a sleeping bag and bivvy bag in the bottom of my sack, I have some idea of how cold I would be if I had to use them in a survival situation. I have bivvied enough to trust my judgement on that one. It wouldn’t be fun, but it would give me a much higher chance of survival. No matter how experienced you are, the basic physics doesn’t change. Carrying insufficient insulation for ‘sitting it out’ in winter is making a very big assumption about your level of vulnerability. Inventions like the Blizzard bag are all steps in the right direction, but as I haven’t yet tried one I can’t comment on that specific approach.
Oh… and one thing to remember about going slow and heavy… you’re probably not so far from the car park if it all goes wrong
Some good points being raised on here, the crux of the matter is that this guy Navigated himself to a place that he knew the MRT team would RV and speed up his rescue as he knew he would be reported well overdue.
I have read what you guys have wrote and agree with some of the points and will agree to differ on others. I as an indevidual deem a 30kg pack weight as Heavy and with that weight can still manage an 8mile TAB (Tactical Advance to Battle) over the Brecons in 2hours. But I have two kids under 10 and a Wife, who are expecting me home after a weekends solo scrambling and wild camping so I carry my insurance on my back.
But thats me and i'm sure my knees and back will pay for it in my 40's but hey thats life !
might I suggest you purchase a mule, yak or similar beast of burden?
Actually, I know what you are getting at. My wife had no experience of the outdoors before meeting me and, while she's not exactly an enthusiast, she has willingly come along with me, including trying rock climbing in the Pyrenees a few times. But if she had to carry a sizeable pack : 1) she wouldn't want to come and 2) she'd be so slow as to make it a waste of time (she's wee you see). So I take the kit and it slows me down instead - result, as Borat would say, Happy Times!
But this is tangential to the post - as you say, having family responsibilities makes us extra cautious. But if a person can carry sufficient kit to be safe and it ends up weighing less by virtue of being 'ultra-light' then surely this must be a good thing? The problem, if indeed one exists at all, is that the ultra-light ethos might encourage folk to cut corners and leave behind essentials.
I have seen this in my profession. In the 90's NASA was struggling to get funding from the US congress so they employed the motto "better, faster, cheaper". Faster and Cheaper were easy to quantify... but when a whole series of missions started to fail, it became apparent that Better wasn't necessarily consistent with the other two! ¨
In general going Lighter will make you Faster but not always Better.
"Is it just me who when walking in the mountains solo in the winter, always wears a helmet even when on easy terrain, packs a stove/Fuel and 24hrs worth of rations on top of my day rations, a sleeping bag and a bivvy bag which is on the sleeping bag to keep it dry in stuff sack, A Golite Hex3, proper top quality duvet jacket, balaclava, down mitts, pair thick thermal trousers, 25 mile strobe light and infa red cylumes, head torch and spare AAA's, Crampons and Ice axe aswell as wearing/carrying a heavy weight B'haus gortex outer layer."
Horses for courses, I suppose. But to me, that is way OTT. I understand where you're coming from but there's no way in hell I'd enjoy myself carrying that lot. I carry enough kit to patch myself up, summon/attract help if need be and survive a night in the open. I might not be comfortable but I'd survive.
It all fits quite happily, with room to spare, in a 45ltr bag.
Back o/t, it's nice to have a story with a happy ending and much kudos to the man for getting himself to a place of relative safety. The fact that 50-odd volunteers were out looking for him in those conditions is, in itself, staggering.
Hi Cruxster man. I'm in my 40's and paying now for doing what you do. My knees, hips and back are letting me know i'm mortal. It eventually catches up with you. I used to carry very heavy packs because i didn't know that it could be done differently. When i ran in the hills i would be wearing shorts and vest and carrying a bumbag with a rain jacket and some food in it. Summer and winter. Then maybe a week later i would walk the same route carrying a big pack with all the trimmings because i was 'hillwalking' and that's what hillwalkers do!. Where's the logic in that? For instance i ran the Lairig Ghru hillrace from Braemar to Aviemore (around 28 miles) in about 4.5 hours. When i walked it with a big heavy pack i think i took over twice that time and was about all done in! When running i didn't even think about my feet. With a heavy pack i was very aware of my feet! I've almost done an ankle loads of times with a heavy pack but never running or with a light pack.
When the 'lightweight' movement started appearing in magazines and on the web, it was like a lightbulb going off in my head. I carry everything i need but i try to be always aware of what i put in my pack. When the pack itself can be a choice between one which weighs 2.6kg or 600g, what one do you choose? If your gear is heavy, you might need the heavy pack to support the load. I will never carry a heavy pack again. I probably couldn't anyway.
