 “They were inadequately equipped for the conditions. In the current situation the mountain is deadly and people should keep away unless they have the proper equipment and have the right experience.”
"We would reinforce ours safety message that if you're going onto the mountains in north Wales at the moment, you must be fully competent in winter conditions.
"You must be carrying appropriate kit, be competent navigators and know how to use a compass, an ice axe and crampons." Oh right so if you don't own ice axe or crampons you shouldn't be climbing up mountains in the winter... er don't think so, its a free country and if I want to continue climbing mountains without the aid of an ice axe or crampons then I'll damn well do so! I agree with the sentiments but lets not start telling people they shouldn't be going to the hills because of snow and ice just because they don't have ice axe and crampons. More emphasis should be put on making sure people have maps and compasses, research what they are about to do and know there own limits. I know my own limits and don't own an ice or crampons ( yet ) but I still have enjoyed the pleasures of walking most mountains in Britain in snowy and icy conditions.
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 do you think that statement was aimed at you or aimed at people with less experience? i'm sure they've posted signs at all the car parks/access points to snowdon warning people of the conditions (gets comfy to watch pigs flying past the window)
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that sounds fair enough Jamie. Just make sure no one calls out MRT if you don't return... I know what you're getting at but I don't think it's an unreasonable message from the Snowdon MRT considering 3 peolple have died there in a week and another two having a close call. Know your own limits - thats fine if you do but these guys obviuosly didn't and hence they got in trouble.
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 I don't understand what you're getting angry at Jamie.
If you don't have the right kit and knowledge, you cannot go to certain places in winter conditions safely. Simple as that. Go and try one of the harder routes on Snowdon in winter conditions without an axe and crampons, and I bet you'll fall over at some point. It only takes one small slip to break a bone that would prevent you from walking down the hill.
If you haven't got the kit, but you have got the knowledge and experience you can safely go out in winter, but you choose your route accordingly. If you're ill-equipped, lack experience and choose an unsuitable route then you are putting your life at risk.
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 The two that were rescued alive had evidently slipped and fallen from the Llanberis path, a route that most folk would consider within their limits. You don't have to be on anything 'serious' to lose it on ice or neve. Get some crampons and an axe Jamie. If you do a lot in winter it's crazy not to have them. Don't be too hard on MRT. It must get depressing carrying bodies down from mountains especially when the accidents could have so easily been avoided.
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| Edited: 09/02/09 13:40 |
Who said I was getting angry?  I am not a fan of outright statements which it seems like to me. I don't like people who tell other people what they can and can't do, in the mountains I see this a lot with people thinking others aren't capable and telling them "oooh no I wouldn't go up there" they ruin what could be an amazing experience for so many. I am the worlds biggest fan when it comes to Mountain Rescue, I see them as our gods and angels and the are the are one of us. I've agreed with everything that has come out so far and I would agree that maybe with one or two mountains at the moment you'd be daft not to take ice axe and crampons in current conditions but statements like that put of a lot of people from doing what they are more than capable of doing. These accidents are often unfortunate and sometimes not avoidable, and we can't stop thousands if not millions of us enjoying the mountains because there is a chance we can fall and die. We'd never leave or houses if that was the case as we're a lot more likely to be run over than fall off a mountain. I just don't like sweeping statements, advise people yes but don't tell them that they shouldn't be going to the mountains.
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Falling off the Llanberis path is completely avoidable Jamie. If you have crampons on. They aren't saying stay off. They're saying stay off if you're not properly equipped and experienced. And the figures this past week or so demonstrate that they're correct in doing so. You wouldn't leave your house and cross that busy road without looking would you? 
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I don't understand what you're getting angry at Jamie. If you don't have the right kit and knowledge, you cannot go to certain places in winter conditions safely. Simple as that. Go and try one of the harder routes on Snowdon in winter conditions without an axe and crampons, and I bet you'll fall over at some point. It only takes one small slip to break a bone that would prevent you from walking down the hill. If you haven't got the kit, but you have got the knowledge and experience you can safely go out in winter, but you choose your route accordingly. If you're ill-equipped, lack experience and choose an unsuitable route then you are putting your life at risk. Whats even worse - if, by being arrogant and foolhardy, you end up not only putting your own life at risk, but also other peoples (like the MRT) that is pretty much unforgivable in my book. That said - the MRT spokespeople are hyping up the conditions - and rightly so - so that those who are of the sunday stroll mind think again. These people do exist - evidenced by my meeting a family of five (parents and three kids) nearing the top of the zigzags on the Ben...no waterproofs, no map, no compass, lunch in a tesco carrier bag, clag down, raining turning to sleet, weather forecast horrible etc etc....and the problem was they just had no idea of what they were walking into. Not a clue. The fact of the matter is that we havent seen conditions like this on Snowdonia or The Lakes for years...and even experienced and equipped people are dying, so allow those that have to pick up the pieces to try a limit damage - by making us all think.....
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 Agree 100% with you Simon. Did Crinkle Crags on Tuesday and above about 2000ft on everything was hard neve and extremely slippery - without crampons. With crampons it was lovely. Without crampons you really would be going on a suicide mission, you will slip and then it's just luck if the slip ends in rocks or a cliff. The problem is I've walked in the Lakes every winter for about 15 years and this is the first time I've seen conditions there quite like it. I think this is the reason even hardened walkers are getting caught out, and why people who've not been up can't understand what the fuss is about. It's not the usual crusty powder, slush and odd icy bit - it's more like Scotland. Steve
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 I fell on a pretty gentle slope this weekend- it's amazing how fast you pick up speed and there was a big cliff at the end. i was wearing crampons and still fell. luckily i managed to self arrest pretty quickly but i am sure i would have died had i not been carrying the axe. It was definitely possible to get up to the fells without crampons/axe and it was probably possible to climb most of the peaks with careful route selection but realistically, there is no way people should have been out above the snowline without them.
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 Jamie, Am I missing something here? Is there a reason why you do not go up mountains with an ice axe and crampons? I agree that you are free to go up any mountain, as and when you like. What I can't understand is the big thing about not carrying an ice axe and crampons? OK, so people have maps and compasses ............ and experience? Experience tells me that using an ice axe and crampons makes the walking in snow and ice much more enjoyable. If you were to slip on snow and ice on a mountain and need MRT help, what would that say for your freedom to go up etc.,? I agree with the MRT warnings, having lost count of the times I've seen people sans ice axe and crampons going up the slippery slopes. Nodrog.
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“They were inadequately equipped for the conditions. In the current situation the mountain is deadly and people should keep away unless they have the proper equipment and have the right experience.”
I read that as advice, not a dictat. "Oh right so if you don't own ice axe or crampons you shouldn't be climbing up mountains in the winter... er don't think so, its a free country and if I want to continue climbing mountains without the aid of an ice axe or crampons then I'll damn well do so!" Crack on. The MRTs don't differentiate between those who follow advice and the numpties who choose not to.
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.........and there should be two rather large Black men in bomber jackets at the bottom of each hill saying ` Sorry son, no crampons or axe,you're not going up'.
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| Edited: 09/02/09 15:11 |
Shall we just modify that post....to two rather large people....of any sex, racial background, sexual orientation etc etc etc......
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I read it as "two rather large men in black bomber jackets". Im sure that's what he meant.
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The reason I put "(yet)" after saying I don't have an ice axe and crampon is that I do plan on buying them when i have the money but as 98% of the time I find myself on a high mountain I don't find I need them they are by no means the first thing my short money gets spent on. Trust me a pair of Kathoolas and a light axe is top of my shopping list. I totally agree with taking Ice Axe and Crampons but don't think people should be told not to go to the mountains of North Wales in winter without them.
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I read it as "two rather large men in black bomber jackets". Im sure that's what he meant. Yes, I'm sure you are correct.....being dyslexic, I can read most things into most things.....
I totally agree with taking Ice Axe and Crampons but don't think people should be told not to go to the mountains of North Wales in winter without them. Dont get your point Jamie. It is considered advice...thats all. I agree about the 98% of time...been there....but when spiky feet are useful, they are useful!
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Jamie, You cover a lot of walks on your website - interesting. How many high level winter walks have you done in say Scotland, i.e. above the snowline and along ridges etc.,? Lets be more specific and say in the Mamores? There is no danger in walking there at any time of the year. (ISPO!) Do you advise those who read your site to use appropriate gear for the time of year/conditions etc.,? Your apparent stance on mountain safety could send out all the wrong signals? Nodrog.
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 I have to admit, I cannot see where the MRT have attempted to dictate to anyone. In the circumstances, I see what they have said to be a legitimate warning that those without such equipment and expertise are at risk. One advantage that living in the BBC Wales TV area brings is that we see the COMPLETE news item which always ends showing multitudes of people venturing onto the Snowdon path post death event, and still they seem to be in jeans and woolly hats and look like tourists and not “properly” equipped mountain enthusiasts. This is who the warnings are really aimed at. It is no good criticising the “authorities” on one hand for failing to educate the uninitiated and on the other criticise them for issuing warnings when things go tragically wrong, particularly when conditions are more extreme than they have been for a number of years!
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Jamie, we're not even talking about "winter" really. Conditions can vary so much not just from season to season but within a season too. I went up Snowdon twice last winter, both times there was plenty of snow up all the main routes but only one of those days really needed crampons.
If Snowdonia is anything like the Lakes at the moment Id say crampons are fairly essential. The conditions this weekend were more wintery than lots of the winter days I've done in Scotland! Were you out this weekend at all?
And I'd also agree with the "98% of the time..." thing. I rarely wear crampons, though carry them whenever there is a significant amount of snow. At the moment though, I wouldn't want to venture too high in any of the UKs mountainous areas without them.
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