Walking and Climbing

This is fairly interesting in context of the bolts that were recently placed and then chopped from the Stand. I'm sure some would see it as vindicating the bolters behaviour - making the outdoors safer for people.

 Personally though I'm much more inclined to believe that both the bolting and these recent accidents are an indication of people not really being prepared for what they can get themselves into in the mountains.

Is there any more information about this anywhere? Do we know if they were simply the experienced but unlucky, or were they in over their heads?

Broad Stand is notorious and not recommended under any circumstances...but is marked as a path on the OS maps.....!

Take from that what you will....

the path is marked because it's a right of way or a path is there. doesn't mean it may dangerous.

"Do we know if they were simply the experienced but unlucky, or were they in over their heads? " what's the difference? why would one be an unlucky accident and the other  irresponsible etc.

Well, I know that as an experienced climber and scrambler I should be able to keep myself safe on BS, but also know that accidents still can happen and accept that. I don't think the same can be said of inexperienced occasional hikers and that the increasingly public nature of the accidents which are occuring (which is not to say that more are actually happening but that they are more in the public eye) needs to be carefully looked at.

For instance, if we're seeing more inexperienced people getting hurt then:
- Should there be more education to help people or
- Has a bit of knowledge been a dangerous thing already, ending in the bolting of an easy mountain scramble against the wishes of the community?

Or, are most people getting hurt just unlucky and if so we carry on as normal

generally, i would say people getting hurt are unlucky. got to get experience somehow.

just my tuppenceworth opinion. if someone is experienced and has an "accident" is it an "accident" or carelessness/not paying attention properly? who knows.

although perhaps not relevant i am reminded of the gun maxim. a gun is fired in only two ways. deliberately or by negligence. it is impossible for it to be fired accidentally.

Ahem!

I don't think Broad Stand is marked as a path on OS maps: e.g. &searchp=ids.srf&mapp=map.srf]see.

The direct path from Mickledore up to Sca Fell Pike is shown as a path and right of way, as is the path from Mickledore to Sca Fell via Fox's Tarn. Lord's Rake is shown as a path on the 25k maps, but not as a right of way. However, there is nothing shown going directly up from Mickledore to Sca Fell, i.e. over Broad Stand.

Maybe it was shown on some old, now obsolete maps, but it doesn't appear to be so now.

the falling climber is my partners younger brother. he is an  vastly experienced back packer but this was only his second time on scafell .hes broken his arm and cracked his pelvis and has been operated on for both today and has had lacerations stitched .

sounds to me that bolts and ropes would make sense in this area but that may attract others who think its safer than it is 

Dave, if the lad you're talking about is the one who fell on top of the mountain rescue team, I hope he'll be able to see the funny side of it some day. I'm amused - and very grateful - that when I tripped and hurt myself in the Cairngorms, a mountain rescue team out on exercise turned up out of the blue a couple of minutes later!

Hope he makes a swift recovery.

Dave, sorry but although I have sympathy for your partners younger brother I don't think bolting and roping every dangerous part of the Lakes is the answer.  Even before I became a mountain leader I didn't attempt any route (walking or otherwise) without understanding the route.  On occasions when I found the route too difficult, I simply backed off and, even as an experienced scrambler and climber, I still do.

If your partners younger brother was attempting Broad Stand, fully aware of what he was getting himself into, this was nothing more than an unfortunate accident and he won't need to tell him how lucky he actually is to be still around.  Broad Stand has a very long drop.

I have personally rescued someone from Broad Stand about five years ago and he too was a walker trying to extend his knowledge - nothing at all wrong in that.  He became stuck fast due to a summer hailstone downpour that made going up or down extremely dangerous.  He was lucky that there was someone climbing in the area at the time and he was more than happy to repay me with a refreshing pint in Wasdale.

My only recommendation here (if it is wanted) is to apply basic common sense.  Broad Stand is not only a notorious black spot but it is also classed as a scrambling grade 3s (a moderate climb).  Unfortunately, scrambling is a grey area between climbing and walking and most accidents occur during scrambling because climbers either think it is beneath them and therefore too easy to wear protection (too many climbers get injured or worse on terrain easy for their experience) or walkers who simply go unprepared or unaware.

I hope this doesn't put him off scrambling but I also hope he does buy an helmet and a rope, learns how to use the kit etc, and goes back and enjoys himself.  There are many courses around that can teach him how to tackle higher graded scrambles safely or he can hire a mountain instructor or guide for the day.  Might cost £150 between two but how much is a life worth?

Ian R.

dave phelan wrote (see)

the falling climber is my partners younger brother. he is an  vastly experienced back packer but this was only his second time on scafell .hes broken his arm and cracked his pelvis and has been operated on for both today and has had lacerations stitched .

sounds to me that bolts and ropes would make sense in this area but that may attract others who think its safer than it is 

I hope he recovers quickly, and it doesn't put him off.

You don't actually need bolts to be able to rope Broad Stand so irrespective of the moral and ethical arguments bolts are unecessary anyway, and if you installed ropes you'd have the problem of maintaining them and checking them as you could be held liable if they failed - as well as the point you make regarding attracting people who really shouldn't be there.

thanks for everyones concern . it will be a while but i know he will see the funny side of it  eventually and realise how lucky he was [ so much for a stress free mini lakes break ] i am sure he will come to be known as flying phil .  he was actually in intensive care for 24 hours observation at whitehaven .i am still awaiting a progress report   not aware of the first casualty we all hope hes ok too  .. we were all surprised as phils  a very cautious person normally .

he will be more aware of the difference between climbers and fell walkers now

hi just found out phil is on the general ward with the other climber who has a broken left arm and is well and eating whereas phil is a bit dopey yet and not eating  .  cat scan revealed nothing untoward  so its wait and see time now ..i have phils car at my house ,could  be here a while

first accident was 14-30  second at  16-30  so how lucky was he to have the MRT on site

Its great to hear that he is okay and recovering well.  I hope this doesn't put him off fell walking or scrambling. 

There are far easier scrambles to do that will increase his knowledge and experience before tackling something like Broad Stand again.  Personally, until a person becomes an experienced scrambler, even at grade 2 I would recommend having a rope at end.  Not necessary in use but there ready for any difficult sections that might look a little too hard.  Another important point is that grades do increase if the conditions are bad.  That is, an easy grade 1 scramble in perfect conditions can become a grade 3 in serious bad conditions.  Therefore, ideally if you are scrambling a rope should be at hand in case the conditions do change.  Obviously, the higher the scrambling grade the more serious a change in conditions becomes.  A grade 3s in serious conditions (i.e. hail, rain etc) can become a Diff or VDiff climbing grade and is no longer an official scramble but an actual climb.  I've had an experience years ago on Jacks Rake, a typical grade 1, that became a raging waterfall in bad conditions pushing the grade very high. Fortunately, we had a rope and helmets in the pack and certainly used them.

It is important to remember that Phil simply pushed his experience a little too far (at the moment) and this could happen to anyone.

I once turned up at the foot of a scramble which was also graded as a Moderate climb and asked the team who were roping up if they minded if I went first as I was scrambling. "Err that's like climbing in unsuitable footwear with no protection and carrying a rucsac?" one of them asked. Which puts the correct perspective on scrambling. Its potentially very dangerous!

There are two basic problems with Broad Stand (these are general points not specific to the individuals) - from below you can see people all over it, often moving quite quickly and smoothly. This gives the illusion of safety as it looks as if people are finding it easy. In descent it starts easy and you've got almost all the way to the bottom before you come across the hard move. Its always tempting to try something that little bit too hard if the alternative is to have to climb all the way back up to the top, and then descend by the much longer route via Foxes Tarn - very time consuming and tiring.

Will fixed ropes help? Theoretically yes, in practice no. A rope by itself is actually quite useless - have you ever tried pulling yourself up a climber's rope - they are so thin its almost impossible to get a firm enough grip. And if you are already slipping trying to grab a rope will simply result in rope burns to the hand.

Ropes will encourage more people on to the route, resulting in more danger as people have to pass each other...its quite busy enough already thank you. If only the most dangerous move is roped then what happens at the second most dangerous place....or is the intention to rope the whole thing. In which case we are turning it into a via ferratta. Via ferrattas require specialist knowledge and equipment....

Its almost impossible to get away from the fact that what is needed is knowledge, experience, judgement, self awareness etc.

Knowledge: Scrambles are long and rambling (rather like this response), so it impossible to judge how hard, greasy, loose etc the route is from the ground. Buy a scrambling guide..it will warn you of the risks of each scramble.

Experience: Start on the easy ones and work up the grades as you gain experience. Don't be trapped into going in a big group - others may be more experienced than you, but will be unable to offer help if things start going wrong - remember you are soloing so you and you alone are responsible for your own safety, and must make all the descisons based entirely on what is appropriate for you

Judgement and SelfAwareness: Comes with experience - know what you can do, and more importantly know what you can't. Climbing down is often significantly harder than climbing up, so never climb up a move which you think you will be unable to climb down.

Having said all that scrambing is extremely enjoyable, generally you don't need loads of specialist equipment (except for roped scrambling...but I always think that is a different sport, its called climbing!) so you can incorporate it into a day's walking without having to carry a great big heavy rucsac. Its all about moving quickly, smoothly, and (hopefully) safely over tricky, but not deperately hard ground. If you are finding it hard you shouldn't be there!

Hopefully Phil will make a full recovery, and start scrambling slightly lower down the grades to gain experience, before returning to Broad Stand.

Chris

Glad to hear that hes going to be ok!

My advice would be for him to go on an outdoor climbing course if he intends to tackle something like this again in future. That way he will have an excess of knowledge as well as a fun weekend! It will also open the door for trying harder and harder scrambles/climbs in the future, as that is always the temptation, and ensuring he has the correct skills alongside the respect I'm sure he will have for this kind of terrain will make the experience fun instead of unpleasent.

 Let us know how hes getting on if thats OK