Walking and Climbing

When I first came across Arc' stuff in Canada maybe ten years ago... it was beautifully made, top spec stuff... but a lot lot cheaper relative to the rest of the market than it is now. So the question remains... how did they do it before? Especially considering that the manufacture was in Canada back then...???? Ummm

Perhaps it's all that money they spent fighting Westcomb in the law courts  !

I regret that I didn't buy any then... as I sure can't afford to now...

I think some of the price is also for its exclusivity.

If you got the dollar you got the gear .

Certainly looks and feels well made stuff but is it any better than Haglofs

I was tempted when i was buying my Haglofs Spitz but there was just something i didnt like about Arcteryx jackets????

Mmmm several years ago Arcterix colthing was made in Canada but nowadays ............

 Anyway is hard to justify his prices when there is so many brands manufacturing really good products with  much more reasonable prices .......

IMHO just another excuse of Rip Off Britain and trying to justify it.

Not to defend Arc'teryx but I was talking to one of their reps in Friedrichshafen who showed me the new stuff for 2010 and explained (or tried to) why Arc'teryx is different. They always speak about their high quality face fabrics and they have a very simple method to test everything they get in, just using velcro. Rub a fabric with some velcro and any fabric that shows loose threads under the microscope, fails.

Since I have a 5 year old Arc'teryx paclite jacket with shoulders reinforced with a 3-layer fabric, he suggested to take my jacket to show the difference between a new jacket and an old jacket. On a new jacket, of course no loose threads to see. He then took my jacket to show the contrast. What did we see: no loose threads. The jacket is more than 5 years old, has been used with a heavy backpack, during self-arrest exercises, etc ... and even under a microscope it looks like new. Yes, that was a bit impressive. I can't compare with fabrics from other brands so I can't say if those would perform as good, but still impressive.

Yes, they are expensive and who knows if the prices are worth it. But I don't have the impression that the price gap has become larger. Perhaps even the other way around with prices differences becoming smaller. Although I certainly admit the difference is still there. But more and more I see Arc'teryx stuff at lower prices than we were used to. While e.g. their old Gamma LT jacket costed 250 € (sorry, don't know the prices in £), the current one costs 175€ which puts it in a range with other comparable soft shells.

Yes, their was a time when they made everything in Canada. But don't forget that they have grown since then and the necessary skills to make all the gear isn't plentifull available. So ever considered that outsourcing could be a necessity because of growing demand? And linking outsourcing to the Far East directly with diminishing quality is a rubbish argument so lets not go into that discussion.

 Of course I know of the lawsuit against Westcomb. And I have a lot of symathy for Westcomb, being a new, small player in the market trying to do something different. But I know to little of the case and actually, except for a limited number of people, everybody knows too little about it to take position.

 After all those comments, no, I don't agree with everything they do or every decision they make. I have made a number of remarks to their reps which got no reply. But the guys have certainly done some things right, things we perhaps all profit from because it forced other brands to go further then they otherwise would have gone.

I do like their kit, and the face fabrics do feel bomb-proof.  I'm more than happy with my Mountain Equipment pro-shell jacket though, it also feels very well made and well thought out and considering the price difference it was a very easy decision!

I've got an Arc'tery Epsilon SV hoody though which also feels well made.  If I'm completely honest though I was probably most swayed by the fact that that I thought it just looked really good and it was also a great fit.  Anything else would just be me trying to justify the purchase after the fact! 

IMHO just another excuse of Rip Off Britain and trying to justify it.

How so? I don't see the connection between a high-end company justifying their prices and "Rip Off Britain", unless they charge significantly less for the same thing in other countries?

I have to say I'm a huge fan of both Arc teryx and Westcomb. I've the first to admit that I could look after my kit a lot better. I've never cleaned a jacket (or any of my kit for that matter) and i  don't worry about them getting scraped all over rock faces, in fact i tend do it on purpose because I know they can take it. They also get used for any jobs outside, which could be crawling about under my car or doing DIY. I've owned a couple of North face jackets and one ME jacket and none have lasted as either of my Arc teryx or westcomb jackets. The same goes for their soft shells too.

 I'm not for one second knocking NF or ME but I do think that they aren't as tough. Granted most peple take far more care with their kit especally jackets. But I personally feel that both arcteryx and westcomb (and mammut) are worth the stretch if you can afford them.

Just my opinion though...

I think the thing to remember when looking at premium price stuff is that while more money can buy "better" in some real quantitative sense, that's only useful if you can use that particular edge.

So while a top of the line climbing hard shell may well be less likely to leak and come apart while I'm chimneying up granite in the back of beyond, if I actually just use it to bimble round the local country park then I really have wasted my money.

I remember being at a big orienteering event (the Scottish 6 days) in 2004.  Camping for a week, we took our Hilleberg Tarra as it was the biggest tent we had at the time.  A top-nocth premium quality tent with a fearsome price tag and very good reasons for having that.  But the fact is the family next door in their cheap family wendy-house tent were actually much better off than us: standing room, more space and while our tent could have survived hurricane force winds... the weather was actually pretty nice that week.  "Best" in a particular niche isn't necessarily much (or even any) better out of that niche.

I'll pay premium prices for some stuff, including stuff where TBH I don't really need everything I'm paying for, but unless you've got a millionaire's bank account just always defaulting to "best must be worth it" will waste you a lot of cash!

Pete.

tom van wauwe wrote (see)

And linking outsourcing to the Far East directly with diminishing quality is a rubbish argument so lets not go into that discussion.

I wasn’t saying that the quality had dropped – I really can’t tell as I’ve not owned their stuff. But I do think there’s a link between costs of manufacture and going overseas. Otherwise it wouldn’t make any sense to do it.

And the price differences were huge between Arc’ in Canada and Arc’ in Europe. I don’t know if that was purely import duties but I doubt it as it didn’t seem to affect other brands so badly. Well... actually Patagonia seemed to have a similar discrepancy but that has flattened out a bit now.

I’ll give an example ; I saw a top of the line Arc’ XCR alpine jacket selling in Coast Mountain Sports (not a cheap shop !) in Ontario. It was on half-price sale at the end of the season. The selling price was about 200CAD for an original price of 400CAD. At that time, the exchange rates were such that, including the sales taxes that get added on after these prices, the price in GBP worked out to be a little under half that. So £100 down from £200. The same model was selling for more like £380 in the UK at the time. I was a student at the time and couldn’t justify a splash out on Arc’ just because of the bargain price.

Now that was probably eight years ago. Roll forward to today and the Coast Mountain Sport price for a Theta AR in Pro Shell is 524.99 CAD. Due to the much less favourable exchange rate these days, that would be the equivalent to about £330 once the sales taxes were added.

The UK rrp is about £350.

2/2

What I’m trying to say is that from the UK & EU perspective, the price of Arc’ has fallen a bit over the years but remains amongst the most expensive (nobody mention Klattermusen ;) !!! ) However in Canada, the price has sky rocketed from being generally cheaper than the top TNF or Mountain Hardwear stuff to being right at the top of the price range.

That’s my impression, after a dozen or so trips to Canada over the last 11 years, of what happened to their local pricing even given their move to the far east in manufacture. Could it be simply that they originally priced themselves to be attractive, built a strong local reputation and then sold at a premium everywhere else (eventually in Canada too?). I don’t know…

But in the end I find their pricing OTT for what they offer. Jackets seem to me to be the industry equivalent of the SUV in the car market (at least until the recent economic crunch). Have a range of products for all needs but make almost all your profits on one or two lines sold at a huge markup. How else can you explain why a GoreTex jacket or softshell from Arc’or Mammut costs as much as a 4 season mountain tent from a decent manufacturer. Thinking of the labour, materials, transport and storage costs… all should be cheaper for a jacket than a tent! Even in jacket land, how could a rain shell cost as much as an expedition 900 fillpower down jacket (Hispar) from PHD? The only way it makes sense to me is to assume that the mark ups are huge or that the marketing budget on these items is passing on massive costs to the consumer.

Once I realised this I basically refused to pay top money for rain gear even when I’d be willing to part with similar amounts for other kit. I’ll hunt around for bargains or make do with stuff that isn’t exactly what I wanted but is close enough. Because in the end, I can find better things to spend my money on. See here for an example!

Or Norrona! As we seem to be about to discover to our cost, the internet has made differential pricing rather hard to mantain.....

I have no idea but the prices give the impression that some of the mark up on shell jackets (and a few soft shells) could be down to Gore's licensing fees.

Martin,

I don't doubt that has something to do with it. But plenty of companies charge big numbers for non-Gore fabrics.

It's conspicuous consumption. Wearing Arcewotsit tells everyone that you're well-heeled; there may be cheaper stuff that does the job just as well, but the little logo tells those in the know that you can afford to splash out big-time. It'd be like me buying a Ferrari to drive to work rather than Finn the Fiesta!

By clearing an entire corner of their shop, EB are sending out a message that they're seriously up-market, something that ties in to a certain extent with their skiing stuff. Have you seen the price of some of their skiing kit?!

Probably also makes the rest of the stuff (Haglofs say) in the shop look reasonably priced

 I've never actually looked at the prices on their skiing stuff. Scared too now!

It is what you want - I like my Arcteryx stuff (only got a few bitty bobs).

Finn the Fiesta is conspicuous consumption....do what I do walk ...

...and don't give me any of that 'too far' rubbish. Move.

I definitely agree with other posters about the bombproofness of the Arcteryx gear. I first saw it - and immediately bought some - on a climbing trip based in Cortina about 1995.

What immediately sold me the jacket I tried - a women's softshell fleece - was the extraordinary cut of the jacket. I have never tried one on which worked even nearly as well. The softshell is very shaped into the waist and very short - finishing only about 3inches below my waist and normally I would have said that was way too short for a climbing jacket to be useful as, as soon as you raised your arms, the jacket would pull up, leave a gap and hang over your harness. Not this jacket - even with both arms raised, the body of the jacket didn't move. It was like it was glued to me. While I know technically how this is done, the compromise is normally that you end up with a load of spare fabric under your arm when your arms are down but, somehow, with this jacket they've avoided that so you get an item which is perfectly functional on the rock but also looks like a very chic street piece with jeans. It's also worn exceptionally well - you've never know it's done a few Alpine seasons and it's still what I fetch out of the wardrobe for a night out in Kendal in the winter.

people get too het up about Arc'teryx prices. What would you rather pay £300 for: a Beta Ar or a ME Changabang? Assuming both fit fine? The prices really haven't gone up for a while and with everyone else price hiking....I've seen the price list for this winter; the Alpha LT has gone up 40 quid to 390. That's it: everything else is the same, whereas TNF's stretch pro shell is 440 and lots of other stuff from many different brands has gone way up. If you want to spend on top-end (or close) mountain gear Arc'teryx isn't the scary proposition it once was. Not that I own any, of course: is it just me or are the shells cut ridiculously big on the bicep? I think it's so belay jackets can fit underneath, whereas I prefer to throw mine over the top. The insulated stuff is cut much closer, which figures.

The ski stuff is a total joke, though, and people pay through the nose here at EB for stuff they really don't need. Did anyone really ever need a ski jacket? What's wrong with regular mountain wear? For which you pay less stupid amounts and get better product? It's nothing more than a series of overblown, pompous fashion statements, particularly disgusting crap like Spyder.