Soapbox

I've been found out!

That's my whole mountaineering phlosophy in ruins!!!

How about watching Vertical Limit AND having shiny kit for Christmas?

I read that, and thought "Oh my god, who ARE these people that need to be told this sort of thing".

But thinking some more about it - if they've got no experience of mountain weather and conditions, it doesn't mean they wont want to "take a stroll" up snowdon is there?

Si

In flip-flops....

...jeans, wellies or trainers and no gloves in sub-zero temperatures. I was out with a group last winter on Snowdon and we saw several groups out who were not appropriately equipped and/or experienced. The zig-zags were badly iced up and people were getting themselves into precarious situations trying to get over the ice. We passed one elderly gent in wellies who had never been up Snowdon before and was most concerned to get a photo from the summit. Needless to say we advised him to come back another day.
The trouble is, conditions can be fine at the bottom but dire at the top, and people think that it must be ok because other groups are going up, without realising the significance of better equipment and experience.

Oh yes there are lots of stupid people out there, including my landlord who even when I had given him lots of advice on what to wear etc, he still went up Snowdon in jeans!!!! Plonker

Better watch out for more of them now that Alan Titmarsh has a colum in Radio Times telling everyone to get out into the hills NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.........

Well,

I myself was involved in two rescues on consecutive days where we removed two badly equipped walkers off the black mountains by air ambulance.
One was walking the snowy slopes of Waun fach in wellies, slipped and #'ed his ankle.

The second was with a large group on Skirrid who had also done his ankle and he was wearing soft skinned walking shoes. A lesson to both both I think.

More importantly, I saw on the Welsh news that the Snowdonia rescue teams have once again been busy, one climber having fallen 100 feet today.

The leader of the Ogwen Valley team was interviwed and brought up the very point that the gear that people are wearing and carrying today are much improved on previous years, but he emphasised the point that people still lack the mountain knowledge and common sense needed to keep them out of trouble. He has said that the better euipped some become, the more they are fooled into a false sense of security!!!

I always find the criticism or ridiculing of inexperienced and ill equipped people a bit distasteful. Everyones got to start somewhere, havent they? No one can start off experienced and learning stuff for yourself is a good way to go. I've certainly been up Snowdon when I'd have been happier to have been the proud owner of a pair of crampons and it took me a while before I realised the benefits of synthetic T shirts but it didn't stop me having fun and living to tell the tale. It's not inexperience or lack of decent kit that's the cause of accidents, it's lack of common sense and ignoring your limitations.

I would hope that no one on here has a problem with people who are new to the game going out and learning, Andy, but the point thats being made here is that there comes a point when not having the right kit does put themselves and others at risk.

As I'm sure people from the rescue services can verify, indeed as Tony said above, wearing unsuitable footwear does cause many accidents and is a huge problem for MRTs in popular tourist areas. Just have a look here for the number of footwear realted accidents:
LAMRT

Wearing jeans on the hill, I am reliably told, now and again result in hypothermia etc.

The point is here that whilst having all the right kit / skills is not necessary, it would be safer for everyone if novices had enough equipment and skills to keep them (and therefore us) safe.

Sorry if I rambled a bit there, you get the gist!

Sorry Dave I can't see where it mentions inadequate footwear anywhere in the LAMRT site. Just mentions slips and never says what they had on their feet as far as I skimmed through so could just as easily mean trips due to heavy cumbersome boots. The idea that one type of footwear is inherently better than another excepting for crampons on hard snow and ice doesn't have much foundation as far as I can see. Loads of experienced people happily climb hills in trainers and sandals. And have you seen the way they round up sheep in the most inaccessible areas of the Lake District fells in wellies?

I'd also have thought blaming jeans for causing hypothermia is a bit much because I personally lose very little heat through my legs. The majority of heat loss is through your upper body and head. Wet jeans wouldn't worry me much so long as I had enough dry stuff on my upper half.

As "distasteful" as you might find the critisism of inexperienced or ill equipped people Andy, it is a fact of life that people regularly take on situations that they are no match for.

Your point that they have to gain experience at sometime does not give them the right to put themselves or more importantly the rescue services' lives at risk because of their foolhardiness.

I think that the Ogwen team leader made a very salient point as even John did by starting this string. Maybe the equipment manufacturers have some responsibility for "enlightening" the purchasers of their gear that "clothes doth not make the man (woman)," and they should perhaps put more emphasis on the responsible use of the gear.

The two that we airlifted were certainly irresponsible equipped and asking for trouble!!!!

Andy - demin jeans are indeed a recipe for hypothermia whether you like it or not. The construction of the weave consists of a flat wove on one face and a twill on the reverse, giving in effect a double layer. The base fibre is cotton - well known for its water-retentive qualities.

This absorbtion and retention of fluid, added to the inherent thickness of the fabric leads to a wet pair of jeans that are very difficult to dry out. Add a wind-chill factor to the equation and there can be catastrophic loss of peripheral body heat, leading to a morbid fall in core body temperature. Which, as I'm sure you know, is hypothermia which can be fatal.

I'm perfectly sure that you are telling the truth when you say that you've had wet jeans in the past and not suffered from hypothermia; then again the youngsters who smoke haven't seen old people die in agony from smoking related illnesses the way that I have - just because they haven't seen it doesn't make it a fact. Or make smoking any safer - it's just the illusion of immortality that young people have.

After reading what you guys have said do you think it is acceptable for kids (11-13) to walk without boots on the North York Moors.

The reason i ask is am leading a group on a two day Camping Barn trip over the NY Moors-if any of you know the area the highest we are going is Captain Cooks Monument. We have done two 'practice' day hikes and everyone has done relatively well but few had boots-one turned up in denim jacket and jeans even though they strict instructions not to (they were dealt with and won't be coming on the barn trip)

Don't get me wrong the kids aren't deprived but asking them to buy hiking boots (fair to say £50-cheapest)on a low level walk-is it neccessary BUT i do understand that it is not fair to ask a MRT to come and pick up a child with a broken/sprained ankle! Bit of an awkward situation!

Any comments?

Mark

Mark - I do know the area. If it's a one-off kinda trip what we have said in the past is that they must wear substantial lace-up trainers. The biggest problem I think you will find is that there seems to be some fashion fad at the moment for kids to not lace up their shoes and some of them wear loafers at school which are slopping round their feet like slippers and they think it looks attractive! Yuk.

It is out of the question for them to buy booties that won't fit them in 6 months' time, I agree with you there. One girl training with me for her D of Ed Bronze did a practice walk in trainers prior to her purchasing some boots but she insisted on being 'fashionable' and they weren't laced up properly. I only discovered this when they slipped off her feet and she got muddy socks - I then insisted that she tie them up properly and she whinged.

The MRT won't object to picking up children with ankle sprains/fractures, it's what they do. Not many children will have full spec mountain kit - mine wore Hi-Tec boots until their feet stopped growing then I got them some decent boots. I think that the greatest problem, from my experience, will be for them to have wet feet. Kids HATE wet feet!

Hope this helps.

Before anyone has a go at me here about the above comments - the terrain will be mostly country lane-type stuff with muddy patches, some very low sloping hills, and some heather-dodging; which is often on well-drained fibrous rooty soil.

Mark - I wouldn't take any group out into rough terrain without proper footwear, and that means boots. The altitude has nothing to do with it in this situation, it's the terrain you're walking over. Even on moorland the ground can be very rough and potholed, and if someone falls into a hole or slips on heather the results could be nasty. I don't know the area you're talking about intimately, but it's cold at the moment and getting a young person with a broken ankle to safety in potentially sub-zero temperatures could be more of a problem than you'd imagine, especially if you've got a group progressively getting colder, and colder, and colder as you deal with the situation.

And, legally, you'd be responsible if there were a serious incident involving one of the children, especially if you'd advised them that trainers would be sufficient for walking the moors. I'd never risk it.....don't fancy being the next 'responsible' adult facing a jail term.

but what is "inappropriately" equipped. not all of us carry the "full" list of stuff (including a GPS as safety equpiment!! :-)).

I think I've got the gist of what is before but unfortunately I would suspect that persons afflicted are casual walkers - out for a walk because they happen to be in the area or have done this because they fancy a day out. they will not necessarily have boots and like teenagers, will just not wear some types of clothing because it don't look cool - or whatever the phrase is these days. Consequently they will have no experience of terrain/conditions and what it can be like if the weather turns nasty.

It took me a long time to work out what I should wear for any day out as only experience has made me more savvy. This morning's walk along part of the North Downs was entertaining at times with frozen and semi-frozen mud underfoot on fairly steep bits (walking poles are wonderful things - still managed to fall over though) and I wore just the right clothes (roll neck midweight powerdry base, paramo mountain top & velez over with a light fleece to keep warm while waiting for the train). I passed a few people, some well togged and kitted and some with trainers and jeans - managed to get one couple to turn back after I suggested that their "inappropriate" footwear would land them on their arses and it was too cold to sit in the mud. Pointing to own muddy bum made the point even clearer.

For these people only education will do - at the start of many sections of trail there are info boards - should these make the point of what to wear clearer (not sure if that sounds patronising). More and better signposting would help. All tourist information clearly spells out the potential pitfalls etc etc etc etc

Well that effectively would stop anyone taking young kids out full stop, really!

No parents are going to pay out for a pair of boots to be worn on one trip - ...or if they do, the poor kid may well be forced to wear them (to get the parents' money's worth out of them) again 3 years later when they are already 2 sizes too small - I have seen it happen.

As for your comment about the weather at the moment - with the qualification I have I can take kids to montainous areas from March to October and out on moorland and lower areas in the winter "when summer conditions prevail" - in other words, very mild days with no temperatures anywhere near freezing. So we don't take them out during winter. At all. Even though we are qualified to do so. And even in summer we take huge sacs full of spare clothing for every eventuality.

The area in question is choc-a-block with well-defined paths. There is no question of "rough terrain" there. Leaders are instructed NEVER to take children off well-defined paths except in an emergency situation.

...I knew I'd get some 'stick' ...

First sentence directed at first sentence of Julian's, "I wouldn't take any group out into rough terrain without proper footwear, and that means boots", Bored posted in between.

Jeannie-sounds like you are from the same school of leadership with taking kids out that i am currently in! I have to say i totally agree with you!

The rest of you must understand that these kids we are taking out are "you people of tommorrow" we are trying to teach them in the safest way possible but also keep the interest there! The punchline out of the Mountain Leader Training handbook is we have to minimise risk whilst maximising enjoyment-finding this balance is very difficult!

Do any of the MRt guys have opinions on this?

Mark

(to Julian)- If we don't teach these people t appreciate, enjoy and conserve this environment safely who will-once they get past 16, they are there own minds completley-at leastr now we can show them how to respect the environment at what i percieve to be low risk!