Gear

R_Mac - I am aware of the difference between a retailer and a manufacturer. I spent more than 30 years in manufacturing in the UK (not the manufacture of outdoor gear), latterly as a director of a small company (following MBO from our parent group). We were very good at what we did, we made mistakes, but did our utmost to correct those mistakes - and our communication with our customers was first class. My apologies that I get worked up when I see the words "typical" and "UK".

To be pedantic, and this may be peculiar to my experience, we would produce a design, produce a drawing and then manufacture to that drawing - I understand the dictionary definiton of producer, but there is a subtle difference between producer and manufacturer to me. 

I take it now that I should have interpreted your statement as "typical of small UK manufacturers of  outdoor gear" and by "small" you mean "cottage industry" - so besides PHD would also not include for example Cioch - both of which I would have interpreted as "small".

I have insufficient knowledge of manufacturers in this field worldwide to present a succinct argument pro or contra your statement, but my gut feeling would be that the UK does not have a monopoly in poor customer service from this sector - there will be good and bad everywhere.

R_Mac wrote (see)

Mal Mawr wrote (see)

They commission it though and it is made to their specs.

Aye, like Mountain Equipment, Berghaus, Terra Nova (I know they make some tents in the UK), Montane etc.

Before anyone mentions PHD, aye they make the gear in the UK and I guess they're small but they're hardly 'cottage industry'

I have just received from Teamio a groundsheet that I ordered on Thursday evening (07/10/10). I'm happy with the service I received.

Incidentally, looking at the return address, I would say that if Teamio is not a cottage industry it is, at the very least, a semi-detached industry.

Cottage industries are generally little more than one man bands or maybe a couple working from their home. You can also get cottage industries that might have a few employees and even work from an industrial unit. I often think Aiguille Alpine is a cottage industry like this latter type. However it is a little bigger than the likes of TeamIO.

I do think that these one man bands do depend on the person running them. Not everyone is good at replying to emails and messages. Also I wonder if he has a day job too?

So with this discussion on producer, manufacturer and retailer, how do you place companies like BPL-UK who get others to manufacture stuff they designed and sell under their own name? Alpkit is one such company too. Then like someone said most "manufacturers" don't make their own stuff anyway. Take Lowe Alpine and their sacks. They have their design team in Kendal but nothing but prototypes are made there. Its all made in other countries where it is cheaper to make things like sacks. Often by companies also making for others too. Take those UL can top gas stoves that are made for go-systems and monatauk and others. All made up in probably a Chinese factory out of component parts. The different selections for different components are the only real difference. The company putting them together might not even be making all the parts that go into it. Yet it is all sold under a brand that purports to be the manufacturer. I'm sure TNF,MH, Karrimor, Berghaus don't make their own kit neither but we call them manufacturers. So if they are then BPL-UK is also as well as being a retailer of others stuff.

BTW are the caldera keg systems worth buying?

> Also I wonder if he has a day job too?

That's the critical thing, I think.  If it's simply a hobby sideline, which has grown from an interest in making things, it may be a bit hit and miss.  But, as I said earlier, I think this should be made clear to potential customers, who might be misled by a slick website into thinking that it's a full-time, professional business, and not just someone earning a bit of extra cash on the side.

With the benefit of hindsight I did make a bit of a sweeping statement regarding smaller UK manufacturers as there are a fair few who while not exactly being what I would consider 'Cottage Industry' as it's generally understood, are small operations. In my defence I was thinking mainly on those who I'd had dealings with and comparing them  to what I can only assume are similarly sized operations in the US.

Regarding companies like ME, RAB, Berghaus etc I don't tend to think of them as manufacturers and would generally refer to them as UK Brands although if I was talking about them whilst also mentioning the likes of PHD I might use the term manufacturers.  

What I consider 'Cottage Industry' is a a manufaturer who designs the product, manufacturers it in house, runs the website, takes care of packing and shipping and answering customer queries (within 24 hours if in full time employment) If it's a one man operation then one person deals with everything.

It's a tall order and not something that's likely to result in a fast track to wealth, I tried it and in the end decided that it wasn't worth the effort but I never knowingly failed to reply to e-mails, never sold a product that I didn't have in stock, never had a return or complaint yet I offered a no questions asked money back guarantee and never had to resort to "I'm having problems with my ISP" type excuses.

You need to think everything through before you consider it and even then something will crop up that you didn't consider, i.e. a customer from Japan makes a purchase, uses Paypal and the address is in Japanese with no English translation. Obviously you can't take it to the Post Office with the address in Japanese especially if you're sending it Insured post. That was a tricky one until I copy/pasted the address into Babelfish, that gave me a basic English translation. I put the address on the package in both English (to get it out of the UK) and Japanese (to actually get it to it's destination) Problem solved. 

I'm glad I tried it but in the end the whole procedure was simply too time consuming. The customer doesn't give a rats a$$ whether you're dealing with everything on your own or have an army of helpers, he's paid for a product that you claim to have and he's entitled to the same standard of service that he'd get from a major retailer. If you can't handle it then don't do it.

R_Mac - was that the twin skin wood burner thing? I seem to recall someone from here had a site selling some. I was sorely tempted by it but I don't have a pot suitable to put it in for carrying and didn't want to get a 1100 Ti pot as well.

All I know I wouldn't want to start a cottage industry type of company. I know someone who had a shop then closed it and sold a lot of stuff on ebay instead. Never saw that as something of interest but know someone who saw what they were doing and copied it. The old buy at car boot sales and other places then try to ebay it for more money. A bit hit and miss. I mean 2 out of 5 times it was breakeven or a slight loss for one of them from what I heard. Pennies made for a lot of effort. Only Royal Mail and paypal were guranteed to make much money.

Not very entreprenuerial of me.

Anyway did the OP get his money back or the goods?

Yeah that was it, as it happens you wouldn't have need an 1100ml pot, the biggest one was sized to fit a 900ml Tibetan ti pot the other's to fit a Mitymug

You may not be entreprenurial but you are exceptionally wise   

Parky Again wrote (see)

"The guy answered emails within minutes" lucky timing or obviously didn't have any work to do. that usually bumps the service level up a lot.

Well!

Just got back from hols.

I got my money back via Paypal.

I am sorry and disappointed that Team IO has let down me and others.

Up to now I've had terrific service from a number of small (one man?) outfits. It's an obvious thing to say, but, good service is so important to developing a reputation and developing a customer base.

Let me repeat: I sent two e-mails and left two voice meassages and heard nothing.

After Paypal refunded my money - I heard nothing. This refund would surely have been noticed?

Please, please could Team IO do or say something to dispel the image that I and others my well be developing/have developed.

I ordered from Team IO because I had seen good reports.

Right now it is just the opposite - and probably for others too, so .............

does anyone know if 'team io' is open for business ? If so please tell me the url for the website .Thanks

I'm pretty certain they popped out of existence a good couple of years ago. This thread basically documented their final months.

The domain name for their website (teamio.co.uk) still exists, still belongs to the the actual guy behind team io, and it still resolves to an IP address that belongs to a real server but there's been no website there for a long time.

I purchased a couple of groundsheet protectors from him in the past and they were of a very high quality and extremely well made.Unfortunately,there were also a couple of occasions when I felt that I had been let down with the service I received from him.

If you go onto E Bay and enter Hilleberg in the search section it throws up a cheap plastic groundsheet protector for sale at £1.60(I think that was the figure in the listing)

The seller is listed as MYmorph and the location of the item for sale is Wolverhampton.

I am fairly convinced that this may well be the proprietor of team IO.I know for a fact that he was based in Wolverhampton and I seem to recall that he used to post on OM under the name of Morph.All of this seems to point to the seller being the proprietor of Team IO but I am only putting 2 and 2 together and don't really know for certain.