I have agreed to help start a walking group for folks with learning difficulties, and wanted to be able to make them hot drinks/food using a gas or meths stove. I thought about using meths as it's widely used by D of E groups (plus I use it myself). The Charity involved in this had never heard of meths, and found it a mysterious fluid.....Banning its use instantly (oh, but they are happy to use Chinese lanterns)!!
Next they told me that gas would be too dangerous, so I could not use that either. I left them with that idea for a week or so, and then asked again, but this time asking them for specific reasons as to why I could not use gas (the group involved here use gas in their home on a daily basis, and it would only be me using the stove in an outdoor setting) when out walking. They did not know enough about using gas outdoors to be able to give me even one reason for not using it, so decided it was OK (despite already banning it lol).
So, I would like to give them a short safety case as to why canister gas will be OK to use (every resident will still need an individual risk assessment, to assure that they will remove their hands once in contact with hot surfaces etc), and would like some suggestions as to what any of you good folks would include within it.
The plan will be to use Coleman alpine stoves with 70/30 mix canisters, and to have to stove at least 4 metres from the residents during meal/drink breaks. There will be myself and one other member of staff always present, and no more than six residents present. The walks will be done is fairly good weather and probably never below zero degrees (usually never below five degrees).
I am trying to put a case to folks who's level of out door product knowledge literally meant they had never heard of: Meths; sit mats; gaiters etc.
I am also happy to give staff a short introduction to using gas stoves outdoors, and would welcome any ideas on this.
The folks who will receive this talk will be alien to: EN 417 Propane Heavier than air frost on cylinders burning the gas vapour, and not the liquid gas flame temps etc.
First of all...I actually agree with their assessment of meths for SEN groups - its silent, flame can be hard to see, its hard (compared to other stuff) to control and has a low flash point - all of which can cause issues when working with an SEN group.
For SEN groups I much prefer gas or Greenheat - though it getting hard to buy.
So we are not are cross purposes, can I just restate that the residents will not be using the stove, I will. They will be at least 4 metres from it all all times.
The group aren't SEN they are LD (also not kids, but adults of over forty plus), and green heat won't fit the bill IMHO as I will be cooking for up to six at a time, and have never had much luck with greeheat except when cooking for solo use.
I will send you a PM as soon as possible, as this is bugging me. I have taught outdoor cooking to cadets, for D of E groups, and also when working as a bushcraft instructor, but am coming up against a 'wall of ignorance' here lol
Cooking for six - I think you need to think again and go away from the Coleman route to a double burner mini-kitchen route.
If only becuase - when cooking for numbers - they work much better (for me) - burners are bigger, pot sizes are bigger etc etc. What I would be afaraid if (if using the Alpines) is a group of hungry/cold clients hanging around waiting for whatever - but if you are geared up with bigger burners etc, you can feed/water them all simultaneously.
It might also help with your explanation issue - Coleman Alpine stoves for the inexperienced may seem exotic and strange. Mini-kitchen out of the Argos catalogue - well, if it was dangerous would Argos sell it?
As its for hot drinks, and your probably going to be carrying the water anyway, why not get a couple of good insulated flasks. If you preheat them they can stay hot for an entire day. Could you carry a backup stove for your own use? Just a thought a jetboil might be a good idea, the cup is insulated and it stays in one bit if knocked over.
Its not just for hot drinks, which is why I will 'be cooking' for up to six residents, plus two staff (inc me).
We might not be carrying the water.
Flasks demand lots of admin for sterilizing, as this is a professional setting not DIY (so sterilizing in this particular setting is almost impossible), plus are not too good for bacon!
A jetboil is a heavy stove (for its usefulness), and would still need GAS whomever it was for!
Thanks for the input though, and please understand my reply was light hearted in nature
If you're using one of the more powerful ones you can tell that it's in use due to the noise.
The alpine is stable and the direction of the flame can be kept under control even in high winds (ie. It can't be knocked over unlike canister top stoves, when they are you can get the liquid gas coming out of the burner).
You could possibly talk about the danger of going out on the hills without any means of heating food or drink.
I'd be tempted to use a standard risk assessment method: look at the possible risks, and their likelihoods, and apply mitigating factors.
The main risk with gas stoves is the potential for leaks (misconnection of supply to burner), and accumulation of explosive gas in a confined space. In an outdoor setting, this is less likely (assuming you're not cooking in a tent). The other counter to that risk is an experienced operator, and checks for leaks prior to use. The second risk is probably CO production due to poor air supply or poorly maintained burner. Again, if cooking in and open space, not a problem.
Then we're into standard 'hot things' control measures; maintaining discipline around the cooking area, and keeping out people who shouldn't be there. They must already have procedures for this, in a standard kitchen environment.
If the people assessing your attempts to provide cooking facilities don't know anything about such cooking facilities, then I don't see how they are in a position to make any sensible decision. I'd probably shake my head and walk away, and I admire your persistence.
The advantage of gas in this situation is that most of these ignorant assessors will probably have had experience of using conventional gas cookers (or even in a caravan, perhaps, or a patio heater), and you can compare the behaviour of a camping stove with a domestic stove, and identify the good similarities, and explain the potential dangerous differences (as above). This is similar to the 'but they sell them in Argos' argument, and the use of EN standards and CE-marked equipment (which means that the design is such that it should minimise the risks of misconnection, etc.).
I hate to think how they'd react if you suggested using a home-made meths burner and Caldera Clone...
Cooking for 6+ on a single burner - that is a big ask and you're going to need quite a lot of gas! On the plus side it will probably turn into a whole mornings activity just for breakfast.
Gas will probably win out over liquid fuels (because everyone 'knows' that petrol/meths/parafin are lethal and will blow up in your face if you look at them funny) I'm surprised that they haven't insisted you use electric cookers!
For safety I would probably be looking at Trangia's with gas burners:
The flame is completely enclosed, Stable (you can walk away for a short time if needed without things falling over) 'Type Approved' by just about any organisation you care to name (DofE, Scouts, etc)
I don't understand why you're so intent on using a stove, making drinks, cooking bacon!
You said that they want a walking group. They're not ready for expeditions. You are probably scaring them silly. Why not just get them comfortable with going for a few walks and find out what their capablities are before introducing any more complications than absolutely necessary.
Your comments about flasks indicate that you are set on using stoves regardless. How can it be impossible to clean a flask to adequate safety levels but perfectly OK to carry and cook bacon in the wild?
Hi CP. I Have indeed gone down the route you describe today. I wrote an explanation of gas and its use yesterday, and attached that to the standard risk assessment form today. You are so right about their reactions to a coke can stove though lol.
Clwydian.
"Your comments about flasks indicate that you are set on using stoves regardless. How can it be impossible to clean a flask to adequate safety levels but perfectly OK to carry and cook bacon in the wild?"
The answer to that is very simple. Water and especially potable water are governed by much stricter rules that the storage and carriage of food. Whereas it would be fine to call out any old plumber in your home setting, in a clinical setting all new installations will need to be chlorinated before being certified safe to use. In the setting I am working with this same type of rule applies, but no bleach or chlorine products are permitted to be used (the MOD also have VERY strict rules on the use of potable water outdoors, and that is for rufty tufty squaddies).
I don't think I am scaring them silly. I already know each resident in great detail, I know their clothing and equipment levels as well as their terrain, fitness and stamina capabilities. Are you judging what they would call an expedition form your own levels or theirs? (oh, the furthest any of them can walk is 500-800 metres in one go!)
Now, knowing that they want to spent all day outdoors (I am fulfilling their requests after all), and bearing in mind they cannot walk for any great distance, would you just let them hang around all day with some water, or would you prefer to enhance their experience and lifeskills with a bit of outdoor cooking (or even just watching, then eating lol)?
Thanks for the input CP, but I do feel you may have persisted just as much as me when faced with the initial brick wall I got Although I have not blinded the charity with science in my argument, I have covered lots of factual points, and shown the similarities and differences with canister gas to the natural gas most folks are fairly acquainted with. It has been frustrating, especially as I hold qualifications enabling me to test the appliances, as well as having taught stove use to D of E/outdoor groups and as part of my job as an outdoor instructor for over twenty years.
Persistence did not pay off in the end....even though use of gas had been granted!
The charity came back to me, and said that the safety case and risk assessment were very good and well laid out, but they had decided to decline the use of gas for these trips.
Before I give you the two reasons, can I just remind you that I had pointed out that we would be using a Coleman alpine stove, with 100 or 125g canisters. After reading the safety case and operating procedures, no one at all even asked me ONE question. Also remember that I had planned to supply the stove, gas pots/kettles and staff training.
Right, here we go:
1 they could not see the benefit of having hot food while outdoors. 2 they thought is was over complex, and had decided to ask each resident to buy two flasks for their own use........there are over one hundred residents eligible to join this group, and that they wondered who was going to physically BE ABLE TO CARRY ALL OF THE COOKING EQUIPMENT*.
This last comment turned my frustration into humour, but did point out a complete lack of understanding or willingness to understand on their part.
So the outcome is that for the next walk, the initial purchase will be 10 to 14 flasks, plus rucksacks to carry them in compared to purchasing....erm nothing. Oh well, only a maximum of 186 extra flasks to buy after that (this has not dawned on them yet to be honest, or who is going to fill or clean them, as they will be owned by the residents lol)
*The thought of the charity thinking I was going to be lugging massive red propane cylinders, along with some coleman double burner on a stand is the only thing that is keeping me amused.
I did try, but it never worked. I do still find it odd that they refused gas (as a serious issue), but have not bothered to ask if I had a walk/mountain leader qualification (or any of the other staff), If I had first aid qualifications, or was even taking a first aid kit, or it I could even read a map.
I did already have all these points covered, but it is something that does not even appear on their radar for things to have. Sadly for this group, the long term aim that some staff had hoped for was to be able to camp overnight(s). I wonder how they plan to fill the flasks with hot water in the mornings?
Doomed to failure from the start I suspect. You failed to remember you are primarily dealing with 'jobworths'; mentioning a gas stove would send them into a fit of giggles or shock.
Logically for a trip like this, sandwiches, fruit, chocolate, cakes, pies (take your pick) and flasks of tea or even bottles of pop would have fitted the bill.
The OP over pitched his needs, overcomplicated the needs and equipment, no need at all for any stove on this trip. Flasks to start with, then a good stable two burner gas stove to follow on overnight trips so they can fill their flasks in the morning. Remember, you don't need to boil to kill off james jerm in the flasks, 80c is ample.
87 will dramatically reduce bacterial growth but you need 122c for 15 mins to kill it, but none of us have died from not doing this now have we. But hang on a moment has some numpty in the organisation written a risk assesment and said " Flasks must be steralised? just because they dont know any better?
What the jobsworths fail to understand is its the social side of stopping for a hot drink / food and the massive increse to moral, they are alos missing the point of you being prepaired to tgake them out in the first place, no doubt none of them have ever done this and seen the joy it would brimng to them.
So if you chose to just do the hot food what could they do to you?
Could you not have some one waiting with the food on the go and get around it that way?
How do you get anything up to 122degC without a pressure cooker or an autoclave?
Soap and water seem to work fine for most things. I agree it is interesting when ill-informed folk ask for things that they have no understanding of. If they are insisting on sterilisation they should specify how it should be done, but I suspect they don't actually know what 'sterilisation' means.
To get it up to 122c you have to use steam it would have to be Pure or Clean steam at about 1.5Bar.
This would give Sanitisation as stated in all the hospital / pharma guidelines and kill off any bacteria.
I did find this on line definition
Sterilisation is the destruction of ALL infectious agents from an environment. This includes algae, bacteria, fungi, protozoa, viruses dormant endospores and poorly characterised agents such as viroids and the agents that are associated with spongiform encephalopathies.
But as you say we have a wonderfull body that will disregard loads of contaminents as they will do us no harm what so ever.
Potable water after all has plenty of bugs in it but thats fine.
Soap and water kills most, dont let the hand gel merchants tell you other wise LOL
You are 100% correct
I dont feel they know what it means and perhaps they havent thought of asking.
Perhaps they should have used the technical term washed out with hot sopay water, after all its worked for the last few hundred years.
If only they would put as much effort in to helping these people as they do in to red tape and meetings
