Travel

I am planning this trip with Exodus in November.  The kit list says these boots are needed for the ascent.  However I have heard they are notoriously uncomfortable and expensive!  (could rent them locally but surely then even harder to get right fit)

 Does anyone know if I could get off with my 4 season Scarpa Mantas with crampons for the climb instead.  I wear these for all my winter walking in Scotland and have climbed Kili in them with no loss of precious toes thus far - want to be sensible and heed kit list but want to be comfy too!

Thanks for any advice

Ages since I climbed Cotopaxi, but IIRC I used Scarpa Mantas, I'm sure you'll be fine.   I certainly wouldn't go to the trouble of buying plastic boots just for the trip.   

I'd guess 3 or 4 out of group of 12 had plastic boots.  No one lost any toes!

For Cotopaxi, yes, I'd say you should be fine with decent leather winter boots, though it can get cold, though for the Andes generally, I'd favour plastic or at least insulated boots if you're going to be doing a lot. My climbing partner suffered mild frost-bite on Alpamayo wearing leathers, but that's a SW-facing face, further south and moving slower because it's technical, Cotopaxi isn't as cold, and it's basically a big snow walk, so you're pumping blood through leg muscle movement.

Be wary of tight boots as it'll still be well below freezing on Cotopaxi and you don't want to be wearing anything that'll restrict your circulation. A full yeti-type gaiter might be an idea for a bit of added protection.

I wouldn't rent locally, but if you do decide you want plastics and your Mantas fit your feet, have a look at Scarpa Vegas, which are made on a similar last and, for me at least, very comfortable.

One thing I do like about plastics on big, multi-day trips, is that they dry really fast compared to leather boots, if they do get wet.

Overall, I think you'll be okay with Mantas, but if you're thinking of doing more sustained, high altitude stuff in the future then something plastic or at least insulated is worth considering.

As per Lloyd, it's a while since I've climbed Cotopaxi, but it's a stunning mountain, even if it smells a bit rank up top

And hi Lloyd, long time no see, how's it going?

I did Cotopaxi with plastic boots myself. And I did rent them in Ecuador. I was very worried about this part - couldn't belive they would be confortable, but actually, they were! So what I want to say is that rental boots might in fact be more confortable then newly purchased ones, since they are already used by others before you.

As for leather, I don't really know, but I was glad I had my plastic boots because it was very cold (especially on the other big ecuadorian mountain we did, Cayambe).

The main advantage of plastics for climbing at altitude is that you can take the inners out and wear them in your tent for warmth and you dont have to put on frozen boots in the morning.

Leather boots can be ok for this tyoe of trip but just bear in mind that if you leave your boots outside overnight they will take a long time to heat up in the morning but which point your feet will be VERY cold. One soultion is to put your boots inside a plastic bag and wrap them up in your sleeping bag in the morning to thaw them out while your sorting out breakfast,etc.. 

Enjoy your trip, know a few folk who've been up Cotopaxi and they loved it!

Oh yeah - that's a thought - will be sure to find out - thanks all for responses.

Can anyone tell me how thick and what type of insulation there is in double plastic insulated boots?

"It depends".

Particularly, it depends on the model and manufacturer.  Some have done specific "high altitude inner" options, for example.  Some specificially include hollow fibre insulation designed for extra warmth, some are more generic padding.  And so on.  I don't recall ever having had cold feet in my "standard" ones in Scotland or Norway.

For the comfort thing, a lot depends (as usual) on how well a given boot fits your feet.  My feet are poster children for Scarpa size 43 as far as I can tell, and I can spend all day in my Vegas without too much problem.  The trick for me with any full on supportive boot (climbing or skiing) is walk with them pretty much unlaced/unclipped and only get them done up properly when the support is needed (climbing or skiing down steep stuff).  I would imagine that a rigid boot of the wrong basic shape would be hell, so as usual try on if at all possible.

Pete.

I imagine there is a plastic outer, basically uninsulating, then insulation: I would guess foam or synthetic fibre, formed into a removable inner boot. I imagine there is a thick undersole of denser  foamed plastic or cork or some such.

 I am trying to achieve insulation to -20C. At the moment I have 2 trial overboots made. one insulated with 10mm evazote foam, the other of 200 gram/sq m primaloft, which is thicker but is completely crushed by any pressure such as crampon straps. I have trialled them in -5C but i have missed the few opportunities in this country to trial at -20C. So does anyone know examples of thickness and type of insulation in double boots for about -20C? Kelvin pointed me at  undersole insulation of 9mm thickness in a high altitude boot, which is where the 10mm starting point came from. The mountain I am thinking of Mercedario (think Aconcagua) is often dry so at the moment the overboots are supergaiters that will have an undersole and chassis added with the crampons.

It's hard to say how thick the Primaloft is in the boots without cutting them open: the inner liner is some sort of foam so that makes any judgement tricky. But the overall thickness if the boot (outer, PL, and inner) is nothing like 28mm. I'd guess maybe 6mm total. Primaloft have a boot-specific variant - see the fourth in the list - and I guess TNF use that, not PL1.

I don't think the Chilkats are designed to be used with full-on mountaineering crampons, although I can't see why they wouldn't work with Kahtoolas. Doubt if there'd be much compression with these.

Have you thought about neoprene, Derek? 

A starting point, perhaps?

thanks David if TNF can show -25C with 6mm insulation and envelope, then there is some hope for 10mm foam plus envelope and partially crushed Primaloft1.

 yes Mrs Nesbit 40 below TR overboots was our starting point. We bought 3mm( both sides neoprene) from Lomo in Glasgow. Ellie used it for the "sort of rand and toe area" of her gaiter, the primaloft goes between 2 layers, but is just enclosed in urethane coated nylon above that. It is very stretchy and easy to form, and tough and quite compression resistant but it is 5or6 times heavier than the same volume of than our evazote foam.

Kahtoolas do not noticeably crush my foam supergaiter, grivel monte rosa straps do compress that part of the primaloft we never measured what loft was left and they temporarily distort the neoprene

Just to get back to my origonal question, and in case this info may help someone in the future doing this climb .... I ended up buying a discounted pair of Scarpa Omega plastics (£200) and they were the business!

 The scarpa mantas would definately have been too cold, someone on the trip even go frost nip and circulation problems wearing Nepal Sportiva mountaineering boots which do have a fair bit of insulation.

Hire boots in Quito proved to be of variable quality and limited sizes so I was very thankful I decided to purchase own pair of plastics prior.

Thanks again to all who offered advice on this topic