Glad a bit of good-humoured levity is back on this thread! I knew you'd get my point once I posted my much loved kebab analogy Nesbit...
Nesbit/Simo - I simply don't think a cafe atop a hill is going to draw people per se (unless there is very easy access). You still need to walk up the bugger and that is what will do the job of keeping proper undesirables away from the hills. That seems a point where we disagree completely, do you really think the fact you could get an ice cream on top of Helvellyn would attract even more people up there?
Steve- A good illustration of what I was trying to explain. I've never been on the Jungfraujoch, lucky man...I try to strike a balance really, clothing wise. If I'm out to walk a dale in the Peaks, the most technical garment I'll be wearing will be my mesh Merrell trainers and I do find it quite silly when I see someone kitted over the top for a day out in the sun. Otherwise I can look the "ultra grizzled hiker" like the best of you, I've got all the kit and the attitude ya know ...
Nick - Excellent comment and you are very right about the different outlooks in the UK and Continental Europe. I was recently in the Jura mountains and the amount of information available to hikers/mountain bikers was incredible, everything was done to make your outdoor experience as smooth as possible. I particularly enjoyed the little shelters with a map of the area, indicating all the paths/tracks, farms selling cheese/butter, particularly as it suddenly started pissing it down...
Walking in the mountains in my neck of the woods is not seen as an adventure(by the majority of people) but as healthy activity to get the family out, enjoy grand scenery and a cheese fondue in a restaurant at the top. Even back in the 80's something called "Vita Parcours" was setup, trails to follow with regular break to do some stretching/excercise during your walk, generally at low level. Nowadays, the big things are themed walks, with information spots telling you about the flora/fauna/dinosaur remains/minerals/history/etc. There are even art projects knocking around, about the elements or somesuch.
I personnaly don't see why some of that stuff can not be implemented in the UK within well specific areas. Some routes are so busy that you might as well network them properly, with all the trimmings of signposts for those people who fancy a walk but don't want the hassle of learning to navigate, buying maps, etc, etc
Mine is a pragmatic approach, those people do exist in fair numbers, they are not going to disappear, few are going to step up to "ultra grizzled hiker" rank and as a result, they'll get lost, moider MRT for nowt, crap all over the place and generally be a semi-nuisance in the hills. There is a lot of hills left that are devoid of people to play with if you seek solitude and a proper outdoors experience. A lot!
Walking in the mountains in my neck of the woods is not seen as an adventure(by the majority of people) but as healthy activity to get the family out, enjoy grand scenery and a cheese fondue in a restaurant at the top. Even back in the 80's something called "Vita Parcours" was setup, trails to follow with regular break to do some stretching/excercise during your walk, generally at low level. Nowadays, the big things are themed walks, with information spots telling you about the flora/fauna/dinosaur remains/minerals/history/etc. There are even art projects knocking around, about the elements or somesuch.
I personnaly don't see why some of that stuff can not be implemented in the UK within well specific areas. Some routes are so busy that you might as well network them properly, with all the trimmings of signposts for those people who fancy a walk but don't want the hassle of learning to navigate, buying maps, etc, etc
How thoroughly depressing. That's Cheeseland off my list of possible future holiday destinations, then
at the heart of this quite interesting discussion is a real dichotomy for me. i've long felt that many people increasingly seem to live life vicariously, rather than experientially and that kind of saddens me in that i personally wouldnt want to look back on my life and think wow! what great TV i watched! which is what i suspect some of my neighbours will do. but now noticably more people are in the hills (imo,) i'm finding it increasingly difficult to find the peace and tranquility that i seek. i know i have no more right to be in the mountains than anyone else, but being honest it's just another reason (one amongst many) for me to want to live somewhere else. fundamentally, england just seems incredibly crowded now and presumably will get worse every year. so, build windfarms all over the highlands, throw mcdonalds wrappers everywhere, crap on every path and build a convenience store on every munro, what the hell, i'm off! wonder what mongolia is like!
many concerns expressed are really as a result of awful outdoors management. in yerp they don't seem to have the same problems simply because the outdoors is managed properly and professionally rather than spread amongst a number of parties whose sole aim seems to be to squabble over minutiae rather than actually adresss the phenomenon.
in 2010 the railways carried a record number of people since 1923 - when the rail network was at least twice the size it is now. these people are all going somewhere. complaining about them and others for whom the outdoors is an escape from their normal lives is pointless and ignores the fundamental question of management.
"but would everyone applaud me if I go out next week and flog cans of red bull or hire deck chairs and sell papers at the top" i would applaud you. i would urge you to try it. it's seems to be the only way you will be convinced that these wild flights of fancy are just that.
"wonder what mongolia is like!"... as I said with 0.5 persons per square kilometre, a country the size of western Europe with a population of 2.8 million, you have all the solitude you desire. You would have to be tough though to live in the "countryside" as they call anything outside of the capital Ulaanbaatar. 6 months of sub-zero temperatures (averaging -20 to -30 in the peak winter months), living in a round Ger with no windows, no running water or sanitation and living off the fat, meat and dairy produce of your animals all year round is no mean feat. But endless landscapes of mountains, hills, desert, steppe, taiga and a unique culture and way of life is there if you really want it.
We have so little "countryside" to speak of and 60 million people to share it with. We have to be more tolerant or we will spend our lives being made miserable by the things we used to love.. Parky makes a a good point about management.
Moonlight Shadow - If you have Vit Parcours you must be from Switzerland. The VP really are great. Used to run my local one 3 times a week when I lived in CH!I have also done one of the themed walks and it was great. Pointed out where to look for certain animals an plants and I got loads out of my day and spotted more Chamois in one day than I had ever seen before!
Mrs Nesbit - Don't write Cheeseland off so quickly! Is I mentioned, there is all of the of themed walks and the restaurants and the trails, but there are at least as many tough lonely and isolated trails to explore, it just means going higher up and using the Alpinweg (maked blue and white) instead of the Wanderweg (walking trails which are marked yellow and red). I only recently figured this out and since then I my list of routes and peaks has grown exponentially!
Terra Nova - I must say I am most intregued about mongolia after reading your posts. What you doing out there? How hard is it to get around? Sounds like it it might be worth looking into going!
I am doing a year of voluntary work, working in a medical university helping to develop nurse education. Mongolia's tourist profile is on the increase thanks to recent BBC series such as Human Planet, and its economy is developing fast with developing mining. Its not easy to get around. Public transport is poor, very few paved roads, but together with the trans-siberian railway and a domestic air service it is sufficient enough to get to some pretty amazing places. I am about to embark on some adventures now that my holidays have arrived.
does sound nice TN, suspect i wouldn't be able to buy a veggie burger though! i used to live on skye, that was nice, but hard to find work. canada would be ideal. also went to berlin recently - suprisingly a really nice place, for a city. all i need now is money, meh.
6 months of sub-zero temperatures (averaging -20 to -30 in the peak winter months), living in a round Ger with no windows, no running water or sanitation and living off the fat, meat and dairy produce of your animals all year round is no mean feat.
I'm currently replacing a Mongolian lady who is on maternity leave, never had a chance to really talk about her country with her but will do when she is back (there will be an overlap) as I was quite amazed by the trip report/pics of a mate of mine who went there for a few weeks trekking. Hell, I even got a cd from a Mongolian band (names escapes me now...) on my shelves.
I'm Swiss indeed Nick. I'm supposed to go to do the dinosaur walk in Emosson (Valais) soon. You get a little brochure telling you all the stuff on the way, lots of prints judging by the pics. I was reading about a trail based on the 4 elements recently, quite arty stuff but it looked really interesting, a kind of educative art project interacting with the scenery and making you interact even more. I wish not that kind of stuff all over the place but they can bring something, particularly to those learning to know about mountains.
The country is made of 70% of mountains and lakes, lots of places to find solitude indeed, you have your "fun" mountains for the masses and the rest for those seeking more adventurous ways.
MS. I have been making video diaries, they are on you tube, plus other interesting films about my work and Mongolia if you would like to know more so you can chat with your Mongolian colleague and sound informed!..
Here's one of a wild camp I did close to Ulaanbaatar..
