Soapbox

I have a knee problem but to my mind it is not painful enough to bother the doctor. It is annoying me though. What should I do?

Basically I have no pain doing my day to day activities, including going for walks. Occasionally I will feel a dull sensation something edging on pain but not quite there when I move my leg so as to bend the knee back, a leg curl movement like used on that type of resistance machine at the gym. What does cause pain is after I crouch down. Crouching is ook for about 30 seconds or so but then I feel a little bit of pain so I get up. I really struggle to get up, even using any furniture around me to pull myself up. I am then ok.

Is that a GP bothering knee problem?? Anyone got any idea what it could be?

Another thing that worrys me is it could be related to a few things earlier in the year. At the beginning of the year I tried to get into climbing again. I felt a twinge in the back of the knee where those ligament/tendon thingies are. not sure what they are called but those tight "cords" either side at the back of the knee with almost a cavity between them if you follow me. That  kind of went but May had my knee locking up in a bent position that I really struggled to open up. It took some time to straighten my leg. Happened a few times the same night (happened when sleeping and even woke me up as it hurt somewhat). not sure if these are related but it niggles the back of my mind that something is wrong or if left could become wrong.

Anyway, sorry to bother you but I know that a lot of you lot have had joint problems over the years and there have been some very sensible advice on here in past threads. My trouble is  I don't like to bother the GP as they are busy enough as it is. Not machismo or anything like that just I have no idea what constitutes good cause to see a GP.

NHS physio are just as bad. Last time I went to the GP for knee trouble I got referred to a specialist  who got an X-ray done then said he couldn't see out so sent me to the physio. Cue another long wait and I saw this lass. She manipulated my knee (while I was in my boxers - tip 1 take some shorts when you see a physio for knee or leg trouble or make sure you have clean unnderwear on). She then gave me two exercises to do. I did them for the first  day and the second then got bored with them. That got me a little worried later on when I went back for my second check up a few months later as I had done nothing. She manipulated my knee again and watched me repeat the exerecises with no improvement in the length of time I could do them. Basically I hadn't improved at all. She turned round and congratulated me  in my effort and how I had dramatically improved to such an extent she was signing me off her list. Job done. I went on the next walk and still had to slide off the hill at the end of the walk  in severe pain because my knee  couldn't take  my weight  when coming off the hill!! I then sorted myself out at the gym.

Not saying the NHS is a waste of time for outdoors or sport related injuries but it is not what it is about. NHS is about keeping you at work not about keeping you living your life I think.

Anyway if my GP is reading this I take it back!! Will book the GP appointment ASAP. Can't afford a sports physio 12 bar. Morelikely to just get a pair of sticks and admit I'm getting on.

Cartilage torn may?

Does it hurt more when you turn? without taking it off the floor ?

xrays show nowt ask for a MRI....

 It could also be a torn hamstring that hasn't healed properly, or a hip problem.

 If you try to touce your toes does it 'hurt', if so where?

 I'd go to GP any way, ask to be reffered to Physo. Some of them are now trained to treat sports injuries. When you get a date ring up and ask if they have one, then ask for to see him/her.

Just tested that Dids and it didn't hurt, but then I picked my laptop up and started to sit down. My weight was on my right leg and I kind of twisted a bit and a dull ache/pain came in. Before that i had a little sensation down from the back of my knee into my calf.

My real symptoms come about when I crouch down. It is getting worse and I am now struggling to get up. On the positive side it doesn't hurt at all when I go walking. The last knee trouble was all in the front of the knee with the tight band on the outside of my thigh pulling the knee cap to one side. That got worse on walks and often ended up with me practically sobbing my way off the hill in total pain and a leg swollen so that I couldn't really bend it properly. That is despite ibuprofen and paracetamol, full doses too, At least this is not that bad which is why I posted for advice.

Think I will make an appointment to see the GP on Monday. That is easy but what i do struggle with is telling the doctor what the problem is. I avoid going to the doctor until I feel I really have no choice but that usually means I have built up a few problems like knee and elbow issues plus some other niggles. End up not telling the doc about any of them just the problem that finally made me go to the doctor. Even then I kind of play down all the symptoms. I guess that is more of a male thing perhaps.

Also got told by my Mum (they do know you better than most don't they) who told me that I always used to twist my knee as I walked. She is great at telling me about matters relating to my health and fitness that I never knew about from my younger days.

PS I might be sounding like a hypochondriac right now which I am not. I think I am starting to fall apart though. I've probably been quite active for decades now and I'm no athlete so no wonder I have injuries building up a bit.

In the mean time I might think about getting some inner soles. Used to walk in those green coloured inner soles that support your feet more. Superfeet I think. Is there anything else at that sort of price that would be better? Thinking it can't harm and could help. Afterall if there is anything wrong with your legs most NHS physios just say inner soles and some exercises with your body as the weight resistance.

Thanks for your advice everyone. I think most seem to say get to my doctors and get checked out in case it is a problem. Thanks Didster about the MRI advice. My last visit to a specialist only resulted in an X-ray. MRIs are more commonplace now I think so might ask for a scan if I get sent to a specialist. If I need one of course. Just hope they don't tell me to give walking a break for a few months. That will just be too painful!!

Huskyman - It doesn't hurt when tryng to touch my toes. In fact I am slightly more flexible on that leg when touching my toes. I say touching my toes but I just can't get close. I am so stiff these days. Used to be sooo flexible. Used to be able to put my legs behind my head and still walk once. Also am able to link my hands behind my back and twist it all the way round my body, step through my still linked hands/arms and return to my starting position after a full 350 degrees. If you don't believe me ask Milly and Maria and Mini-Mal. They got me to do my party trick at last years Halloween trip. That was how I got the name pipecleaner from Mills.

Anyway it hurtswhen I pull my foot back with it on the ground so it works the muscles that pull your lower leg back. The leg curl action. A few months back I did have my muscles lock my leg up a few times in the bent position. Quite a strong lock up at less than 90 degrees angle at the knee. Big hole in the side of my thigh just above the knee on the side when it was locked up. The biggest pain is when I crouch. Trying to get up is hard too. Not a case of lack of strength in my thighs just kind of get so far then my knee kind of not wants to straighten up.

Good tip about asking to see a physio with sports injuries ecperience. Will do that if they send me to one

husky - didn't you have a major knee problem last year? how did you get on with it? I hope you are back fit and well. You've got dogs IIRC, you getting out on long walks with them fully healed now??

NHS physio are just as bad... <snip tale of no effort made at all> She turned round and congratulated me  in my effort and how I had dramatically improved to such an extent she was signing me off her list. Job done.

One thing I've gleaned from conversations with physioterrorists is they get royally cheesed off with people who don't bother doing their exercises, because they are basically wasting the therapists' time and taxpayers money too and only bother turning up because it's free.  So I don't think it's completely out of order for them to shunt such people out of the system as soon as they can so they can devote their efforts to people who put in the effort so they can make a difference.

I don't condone that, but I can understand it, and a sample base of 1 to judge them all by when you failed to put up your half of the effort isn't what I'd call a fair assessment.

Pete.

Trouble is I only got two exercises. One I couldn't do for as long as she wanted me to as it hurt my knee. The other one was to manipulate my ankle. I have an ankle that is very flexible one way and completely stiff the other way which was the way I had to push it. That exercise had absolutely no effect. My ankle just does not move that wa, plain and simple. IMHO the physio should have realised that afterall she tried to manipulate it that way and it didn't budge at all. What is the point of an exercise that doesn't do anything? I mean i really tried, putting a lot of pressure down on my foot as shown. Did that three times a day for two days and honestly if I put any more pressure on it I wondered if It would break. It did not move.

It was only one example of a physio. I have to say the second physio I went to after I broke my hand was an older woman in her fifties I'd say. She was pretty good. Got my fingers from very little movement to complete movement in all but the finger who's knuckle got broke. That one has about 60-65% of the previous motion I reckon. She gave me a few exercises to try and we did the ones that worked for me. She had a decent length for the session to and after each session the movement in my finger showed an amazing improvement. Basically each session was a large step forward.

The previous physio gave me a short session (during which she actually went into another cubicle to do something with the previous patient who's session had overrun and she was still treating). She also gave me no exercise that I could do or that did any good. I think that is generally not good service and it is irrelevant whether I did mypart or not as my part could not be done without the feeling that it made the problem worse. I did sort out that problem. I went to my gym and told the guy there what the physio had told me and he gave me a fitness regime that strengthened my knee and the surrounding muscles that worked in cooperation and antagonism with each other (not the right terms I know) and it helped a lot. My knee has not had that issue for about 10 or more years.

I understand that NHS physios are stressed with overwork just like other parts of the NHS but when you have a good one you realise that it can be done well. I have a lot of friends in the NHS and the one thing they all have in common is they all know good and bad in their area of expertise. You hear more stories of the nightmare consultants or registrars or sisters or whoever. The ones who they warn you never to see. If I ever have to see a specialist in any of the sectors that my friend work in I will always check with them whether the consultant is good or not. If not I will ask to see someone else. From what I have heard I am worried about standards in NHS. Doctors who use old procedures because they haven't kept up to date and don't know the safer and more effective procedures. In one case the procedure used wa actually dis-credited, but it was not his fault as he was acting as a locum in a field he hasn't worked in since a rotation as a junior doctor 30 years ago but that rotation meant the right box was considered ticked.

I must qualify this as I believe that the majority of people working in the NHS are skilled and qualified to do their role and do it diligently it is a case of the good ones aren't heard about but the dodgy ones make for better tales to tell people.

You need help to diagnose the problem. Once that is done you can do something about it. Its a process of elimination e.g where is the pain;how did it start;pain in joint ,ligament or muscle. Depends greatly on the knowledge of the GP if they can help,sports guys are best as they deal with a lot of knee ligament problems and rehab. 

There is some good stuff on youtube re exercise rehab and taping once you are diagnosed. +1 for completing your physio programme ,as with any injury you risk a reocurrence if you renew dynamic exercise before completing the strengthening phase.

 Going by what you've said it could be a ITB, or lower Quad. problem, or both.

 they are the muscles, tendons, that are used to make you stand. They are some of the things I damaged to my knee. I also tore a cartlidge, but that may not be what you have done.

 I've been a Phyiso. once a week for past 4mts and may have to go for at least an other month.

 It has helped me to heal very much, the only time I get pain is when I go uphill. But that's because I need to get the muscles 'built' back up. If you could see left leg compered to right it looks so skinny as most of the muscle has 'wasted' away. Due to lack of use.

 It's getting stronger as each day passes but will be a while befor it's close to what it was.

 I'll get there, slowly but surely. For once I'm doing what Physio. tells me to do, exercise wise. I want to get knee as strong as possible so it hopefully doesn't "go" again. 

The Iliotal band (bad spelling) is the one on the outside of your thigh that attached to the knee cap I think. I had an issue with that one in the past which the gym instructor helped to sort out since the NHS physion didn't help me. At least since I knew the issue was I could find my own solution for that and have been 10 years clear of that issue. This one in something new.

Glad to hear you are getting there Husky. I thought you was the one who had the major knee problem. If the physio is helping then you are right in sticking to what he/she says. I suspect they make more of an effort for more serious problems. The good physio was working on a nasty broken hand. The knee case was not as serious but was a major problem to me as walking has a large importance in my life as my main way to unwind each week, plus I enjoy it so. If I'm functional enough for working that is good enough for the physio I reckon.

SD - my "poor" physio never gave the chance for modification. I had one appointment where I got assessed very quickly and got told a two exercises that did not work for two different reasons as explained above. Then something like 6 months later I had a second appointment and the physio barely gave me 5 minutes before she signed me off her list as being  "healed". I tried to tell her the exercises were no good but wasn't listening. She had me off her lists before I got there I reckon!! I was still coming down from short day walks (up to 8 miles) with a knee so swollen that I struggled to bend it. I was in pain and couldn't get any help from the physio. Basically I was on a two appointment deal with her no matter what the outcome. I accept that but don't think it is right. I sorted myself out with help from the gym instructor. Not ideal as he wasn't a physio but a sports science graduate. What he did the physio could have done and perhaps should have done.

I do agree with the rest of what you say just the physio was never going to operate in that manner but wanted to clear her lists irrespective  of whether she should do so. I was not treated or rather my problem wasn't so she should have re-designed my exercise routine.

 Lost, it seems a long time between appointments for you.

 Maybe England is different from Norn Iron, as anyone I know who has had Physio. get seen aleast every 2wks, if, like me every week.

 The exercises I was given to do at home hurt like hell at first, but as I kept doing them it got easier. Some of them I thought where 'stupid'. I couldn't see how they would make my knee heal. As I kept doing them I realised they where helping.

 My Phyiso, knew about sport injuries, so I followed her advice and am nearly back to normal. Apart from needing to build strenght.

 Not beeing unPC on porpose But that she, Maveve, was Young, Blond and Fit, helped, I wanted to do the best I could, just to see her happy I was doing the best I could

 Young enough to be my Grandaughter!! But knew how to fix my knee

Paul.