Travel

Afternoon All,

As part of my planning for my September Austria hike, I'm looking at climbing some easy peaks lining the Stubai "Rucksack Route".

In particular there are about 2 - 3 peaks that interest me that involve "easy glacier tours". One of them is Wilder Freiger (~3400m). I get the impression from terms used in my guide book like "extremely popular" and "very crowded" that many folk just simply walk across these glaciers unroped.

Now I've been told that if a glacier is "naked" (i.e. free from snow) then walking unroped is fine as the crevasses are plain to see. But when a glacier is covered in snow then one should always rope up - no exceptions (even on glacier ski resorts??).

What's the general opinion on this - should I get local advice from the huts before venturing onto glaciers or should I stay off these otherwise easy summits?

Glaciers are a realm of walking that I have not yet dared to explore mainly because my circle of friends don't have any equipment/experience to introduce me to glaciers.

Anthony

risk assesment rule number one: its your risk.

point i am making is if you want to walk across a glacier unroped then do so, it is still a risk on dry glaciers, a slip ends in a big hole, and before you think i am trying to put you off, then i will state that i have happily walked across glaciers unroped, but that was my risk, as yours is yours, any proffessional advise would be rope up, especially if you have not been on glaciers before, plus you need to know crevasse rescue otherwise the rope may prove pointless. a little to think about.

Some of the Swiss glaciers are marked as suitable for walkers. Examples are Lotchesberg descent on North side; crossing from Cabane de Dix to Pas de Chevres; Grand Desert going from Cabane de Mont Fort to Cabane de Prafleurie. Take local advice.

I'm not sure that if your guide book describes a glacier route as "extremely popular" and "very crowded" that you should necessarily take that to mean that it is a dry glacier!.

Do you want to be doing any place that is described as 'extremely popular' and 'very crowded'.

Tune into www.alpine-guides.com and end up on beautiful, deserted alpine glaciers in safety, whilst learning to look after yourself. It is worth it.

Remember that the alps is suffering badly with global warming and that areas previously classed as safe or stable are melting. This may mean an increased danger of crevasses even on glaciers that were previously relatively crevasses free.

...good advice, even more reason to go with somebody who knows what they are doing.

This may be obvious, but it's not enough just to be roped up on a glacier, you have to know enough to be able to extricate yourself from the situation if one of you goes in the slot - your mate might know what he's doing, but what are you going to do if he falls in, smacks his head and is hanging unconcious in his harness. And that's assuming you've managed to arrest his fall.

You need to know how to stop the fall, how to create a back-up anchor and tie the rope off and, if necessary, be able to set up a pulley system quickly and efficiently and get your partner out of the crevasse.

David, are you on commission from Alpine Guides? I'm sure they're excellent given the caliber of the staff, but equally, there are plenty of other options out there too. You've mentioned them twice in different threads now. If someone asks for guiding company recommendations, that's fine, but it's a tad forced in this context.

Thanks

Jon (OM site editor)

No I am not on commision, but you could be forgiven for thinking so.

The answer to your question lies in your own comments, should anybody be on a glacier untrained. I have worked with or employed several guiding companies and Alpine Guides come out top on experience and teaching ability.

You are right to question my motives but I am doing no more than making suggestions of quality.

:-) Well, let's just compromise and say that anyone going onto a glacier should seriously consider getting professional instruction from a reputable guiding company using qualified guides.

And going back to the first posting, yes, dry glaciers are relatively safe, but anything with snow cover can be lethal, lots of crevasses are sort of bell shaped with a narrow, easily covered top and a bloody great big deep interior. It doesn't take much to go into one.

While recommendation is a good way of selecting a guiding company you should always question any recommendation unless you know, trust and respect the person giving the recommendation.

There are lots of companies around who will give quality instruction, including Alpine Guides and Jagged Globe. At the end of the day it's down to personal choice who you go with, but I would suggest you shop around as you would with any other product or service. Your eventual choice should be based on a combination of factors including their reputation and price. Talk to the companies on the phone before booking and you'll get a good idea of how they treat their clients - remember your safety is in their hands not only during the course but whenever you ut into practise what they teach you.

The more you know and the more training you have before setting foot on a glacier the better. Having said that I don't entirely agree with Jon that you have to know how to set up and deploy a pulley system for rescue purposes (though obviously this is a good idea). A bare minimum is to know how to arrest a fall, create a back-up anchor, tie the rope off and escape the system as Jon said - and was so recently put into practise recently in the alps.

Another consideration is taking out rescue insurance as it can be extremely expensive.
Research on routes in advance is also vital.

Personally I think you should be able to set up a pulley system. Here's why: you're climbing in, say, the Andes, or even the Alps, your mate goes into a slot. He pendulums into the wall and hurts himself, is maybe unconscious and at any rate can't get himself out or play any part in an assisted hoist.

You stop him sliding further, tie off the rope, what do you do then? Wait for help? It's bloody cold in a crevasse, someone in shock and bleeding could go hypothermic very fast. If I was the climber in the crevasse, I'd want to be roped to someone who could get me out as quickly as possible.

Incidentally, I certainly wasn't questioning the quality of Alpine Guides, I met Twid when he was instructing at PyB and he's obviously a very able instructor as well as being a phenomenally talented climber and the rest of the staff aren't bad either...

Jon, I totally agree it better to know self rescue techniques, but it is relative. It's obviously a hell of a lot more essential in the Andes than say Chamonix. But if no-one ever went on glaciers without knowing the technique the alpine tourist industry would be dead in days.

Without wanting to bore anyone I have to side with Jon on this. An accident recently in the Alps saw a chap leave his wife in a crevass whilst he went to get help. Unfortunately the media never give the full picture but it would appear that he arrested her fall, secured her and went for help. Thakfully she was rescued by a passing team before she succumed to the cold.
Why the husband did not recover her was not explained but if it was the lack of knowledge then it nearly cost his wife her life.
Personally I consider the minimum training is arrest, escaping the system and setting upo a haul, but that is purly a personal point from moderatley experienced person.
I have to say though no matter what the subject it is very interesting to read people opinions.

That incident got a fair bit of coverage n here too David. It was a bit more complex than just "chap leave his wife in a crevass whilst he went to get help" and "if it was the lack of knowledge then it nearly cost his wife her life". He should be given credit for knowing how to arrest the fall in the first place, then set up a belay to prevent her falling further and escaping the system so he could go for help. I wonder what proportion of people going to the alps could do that? OK his lack of knowledge or ability nearly cost her life, but his degree of knowledge and ability actually saved it in the first place.

I agree that the more you know the better, but I think it's unrealistic to expect anyone who ventures onto the mountains to know everything. I would expect them to know the necessary techniques if venturing to remote areas where rescue teams are not available or practical, but not in popular tourist areas where such services are available. How many of the millions of skiers who go to the alps every year know any rescue techniques?

Incidentally, I don't know if anyone here's ever tried setting up an anchor while holding someone who's fallen into a crevasse on the end of a rope, but trust me, it's easier to write than to actually do.

I did a mountain rescue course in the Andes a few years back and the Peruvian guides were happy to let people walk over the edge of ice cliffs for practice. Obviously there was a safety back-up as well, but it was set so basically you had to hold your partner's fall then set up a back-up anchor yourself, escape the system then rig a pulley system. One thing it teaches you is that people meandering across glaciers with loads of slack rope out between them are muppets, it's hard enough to hold a fall with a taut rope when you're expecting it to happen. And all the stuff about the rope sawing into the edge of the crevasse and softening the impact... Not much.

Personally I'd love to see someone come up with some hardware to simplify the whole crevasse rescue procedure. Again, I'm sure it's easier to write than to actually design, but I'd love to see it done as rigging a full pulley system under pressure isn't the most straightforward thing in the world.

Jon
The nearest I've come to it is setting up an anchor on a shaft while caving. Cavers have the advantage of being able to set up a counterbalance system in many instances, but there are other systems in use that would be easily transferrable to crevasse self rescue.

With the right equipment you can set up a hauling system that gives a 3-1 mechanical advantage, which will help light people haul considerably heavier victims. This is where the problem lies. Not many people carry equipment like swing cheek pulleys and ascendeurs in their normal kit.

Despite my difference in opinion with Jon on the necessity of knowing all the self rescue techniques I would thoroughly agree that it is essential in certain areas and extremely useful in even popular areas like the alps. It doesn't take long to learn the basics of setting up a pulley system, and the extra equipment doesn't add much weight.