Gear

I was looking at the Montane Black Ice down jacket on webtogs here - http://www.webtogs.co.uk/Montane_Mens_Black_Ice_Down_Jacket_102909.html?utm_source=Webtogs&utm_campaign=12ae979368-Webtogs_Best_Down_Dec_1112_8_2011&utm_medium=email

The outer is freeflow ultralite and in the technical section bit on the right it says;

"Freeflow Ultra-Lite is an incredibly lightweight coated nylon rip stop fabric which is waterproof, downproof and breathable. Freeflow fabric is also DWR treated to help moisture form droplets and 'roll' off the surface."

So great - its waterproof yet breathable - but then in the body of the decription it qualifies this by saying;

"The Freeflow shell makes the Black Ice jacket waterproof to 800mm H/H so it can shrug off blizzards, rain and storms without fail."

Have I got this wrong? I thought that most "waterproof" outers are in the range of 10,000 - 20,000 mm H/H or higher (because of pressure under use - backpacks and such) and under EU regulations (just checked on the Ellis Brigham site) fabric has to have a minimum of 1,500 mm H/H to be considered "waterproof".

So, is this just marketing spin?  could 800 mm H/H be considered waterproof at any level, or is this misleading advertising?

By the way, this isn't an argument about whether waterproof down jackets are practical / needed in the UK, but given that some people will make their buying decision on the words used in the description, would you consider this jacket to be waterproof?

Well Pertex endurance is seemingly 1k so its much the same as that. 

Its a tiny bit tricky for the companies to explain really - not really properly waterproof no, but a fair bit more water resistant than a straight up miro fiber would be. But yes some of the marketing is overblown. Not unusual!

It is also of course a massively more practical idea than a fully waterproof jacket (which besides Crux's fancy stuff needs a whole new layer) because they can keep the 'normal' production methods. And these things will still beat off snow, block a lot more wind etc. PHD for instance put the rather similar dri shell on nearly all their really 'serious' jackets.

(anyone wearing a black ice in rain is being a bit silly.).

n.b. it's Webtogs who are making the dubious claims about shrugging off rain.

Montane's own website is a bit more circumspect.

The real trick with a downie is whether the baffle seams are taped or welded.  They're generally not, as in a box-wall construction you've got to tape around corners or have a separate over-layer.  And without the seams being treated that way it doesn't matter what the fabric it is, the numerous holes for the stitching will let the water in.

(anyone wearing a black ice in rain is being a bit silly.). 

Indeed...

Pete.